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Nice post.
Much like you and Jones, I put some thought into this and decided that, under certain circumstances, violence is not only okay, it's my preferred course of action. I'm a woman and there isn't a more satisfying response to a stranger's hand on my ass than physically reminding him that isn't acceptable.
###
Hi Jill!
Well said. I totally agree and just used that caveat because the topic of fighting tends to get the most visceral kick-back from women... but certainly not all women.
Thanks for chiming in!
Tim
It seems as if people take advantage of others, knowing they won't stand up for themselves, and use it to be a complete ass. Violence has been filtered down into movies and completely removed form schools and public places.
I'm not saying go around punching douchebags, that'd be too easy. Punch the extremely deserving douchebags.
Frankly, i'm tired of the B.S. oversensitivity in American culture right now. I couldn't even go out to the theatre without hearing people talk out loud (oftentimes on a cell phone), texting away next to me, parents allowing their kids to kick the back of my seat, and when confronted saying they couldn't do anything about their kid's behavior.
I live in Australia right now, where it seems fist fights are a little more common and police are a little more tolerable to the innocent party.
Take Care & Happy Holidays,
Jose Castro-Frenzel
Dallas, Tx
just last week I saw guy-A intellectually mouthing off to guy-B and then guy-A got punched in the shnoz. Guy-A whimpered, "what makes you think you can just punch someone like that?" Guy-B said "what makes you think you can talk to me like that and not expect to get punched?"
It was great!
The crowd definitely favored guy-B...
but my wife still made me sleep on the couch that night.
V
p.s. amongst all the NYT best selling business authors this year, you are the only one to take a stand for all us boys who love speeding, playing with guns and punching jerks.
Iow, an especially deserving -and disturbing- case. Guy was trash talking me through every possible medium, and had finally called me at home just to harrass me. Obviously, there are people in this world who needed to be taught a lesson yeeeears before, and who just don't understand "shut up" or "quit lying".
Ya know what? Not only did it feel GREAT, everyone in the circle respected me more after that. And they are still talking about it with reverence, 4 years on (also because the guy still needs a beating in many ways).
And what about women? They can treat a man however they like with zero consequences? Not all jerks are male y'know!
There does seem to be a growing number of rude people who are either socially unaware or just don't care. Either way I think you did the right thing.
Good for you man!
And, he added, he'd get rich teaching people how to do the skewering.
So yeah, maybe you can take the other guy... you think. Believe it or not, it might take more than you expected. Suddenly your plan to right the wrongs of the world turns into nothing more than a bar-room free for all or just another trip to the ER/A&E dept at your local hospital.
If you're coming from a position of weakness - psychological *or* physical - you are likely just acting out and over-compensating for your own insecurities, trying to 'be the man' you never were. If you truly are a superior man you will be able to acheieve a similar result via verbal means (ie humiliation or social embarrasment in front of his peer group) - or give him just the hiding he needs without going overboard and going 'psycho'. Too many guys think standing up for yourself means unleashing your inner Rocky and throwing a punch to settle an argument.
Where I live there are enough idiots every weekend who'll gladly take you up on the offer if you think you are man enough. Why do you think martial arts teach self-control? Because even if you lose the fight you still acted with dignity, honour, self-respect and stood up for your values. Then you're always a winner. Trust me.
The way I look at it, they have to live with being an a**hole for their entire lives - I only have to put up with them for a few minutes. On balance, a little compassion is in order :->
I trained in martial arts for many years and the main thing I got was a respect for how easy it is to damage something vital in a fight - often by accident. It's why I never got the whole "Saturday night barfight thing". I don't know. Maybe I was just raised wrong, but I just think life is too short . . .
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Hi Peter,
This is a good point. Once boys are big enough to be called men, fights often produce more than bloody noses. 99 times out of 100, the issue can and should be resolved by taking yourself elsewhere. Your comment also raises another important question: were there more gentlemen's rules in the fisticuffs of yore? It seems to be the case. Today, fights to settle differences are generally considered "no-holds-barred," which is ridiculous, of course.
Thanks for the comment,
Tim
There have been studies done that have shown that children, even children with a high risk of resorting to violence, show a marked decrease in their tendency towards violence when they are trained in a martial art. The studies also show greater respect for others and empathy and increased self confidence.
It would also give them a controlled environment for resolving physical disputes, if they decided to take it that far (and the studies show that they probably wouldn't).
But of course, there's always the risk of a John Kreese (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0044574/) instructor teaching the wrong things like winning means more than honor...
I think there was a time when people acted more civil because of both the threat of a good punch in the face and the teaching of proper etiquette by their parents. Nowadays the punch factor is gone (or the puncher get sued, while the person who deserved the punch collects cash) and parents raise kids to think they are more important than others. Many believe they can act in any manner and say anything without regards to those around them.
This is a shame. I agree it is worse with the anonymity of the internet and it all just feeds upon itself.
Great post Tim, now my question.....how do we restore civil behavior and respect into society? Maybe some people should have special permits issued that allows them to punch jerks in the face without the threat of a law suit.
thom
I think our problems go much farther than this. As men particularly we're no longer willing to draw a line in the sand and say this is the behavior I'm willing to accept and this is the behavior I'm not; whether it’s your girlfriend or your boss.
We’re expected to sacrifice our own time for the everyday emergency at work. We accept blame for the short comings of our coworkers. We will perform any assignment or attend any meeting passed down to us. We can never be pushed too far.
The most important thing I’ve done in the past year was telling my boss I will no longer be performing a particular type of job…one way or another. When you accept that your time (life) has value, and define what you are willing to accept, you’ll be a lot happier. Surprisingly people will recognize this and respect you for it more than if you simply perform to their satisfaction.
I don't make a habit of such behaviour, and maybe I should feel bad about it, but years later I still think he deserved it.
Really, it's not so much about violence, but more saying "No, you can't just treat me any old way and expect me just to roll over". And there are plenty of situations where you have to tell people just that in no uncertain terms. I just save getting physical for special occasions such as the above :)
Tim--very seriously--I think this could be your next big crusade. You have the passion for MMA and the influence to make a difference. Think about it!
###
Hi Mark,
Judo and kendo are both mandatory in phys-ed in Japan. In fact, did you know that Jigoro Kano, the founder of judo, designed it to be a safer version of jiu-jitsu that could be used in the public school systems for physical and moral development?
Interesting...
Tim
But to his defense he has only done this three times in the ten years we've been married. Each time someone picked that fight with him. He is more circumspect now, but you push him hard enough, that old country pops right up in him and POW!
I feel safer with him around I can tell you!
So in a round about way, I think guys should have some leeway in pummeling each other - it was my observation in college when the guys across the hall had a disagreement they pounded each other for about 15 minutes and the next minute they were drinking a beer and everyone was fine for weeks. Our apartment... well...
In a way it releases aggression and obnoxious jerks who think they are better than they are find out where they really are on the pecking order. But there does need to be some rules and etiquette about it because it can get so out of control.
And watch it with the little skinny guys who can cook...
To anybody who would have asked me why I did it, I would have said it was because I had to. The big question is not how we feel about doing or not something, but if we have or not to do it.
I think that's how we stand as good men. Like Gary Cooper in "High Noon" we have to do what is right. We can however minimize the judicial impact by shouting out loud first that we don't want to fight!
However.
Before you start throwing punches, perhaps you could escalate to confrontation first.
What I mean is that SO MANY PEOPLE ARE F*CK*NG AFRAID OF CONFRONTATION. They would rather let 'it' slide. We have gotten to the point where someone won't verbalize that they are even upset. I can't tell you how many people I have reamed a new one for - that, as I am tearing into them, have absolutely nothing to say.
I think that's why "Office Space" and "Fight Club" were so liberating. Those guys started saying exactly what they meant.
Seriously though, if you are identifying too closely with folks who let a-holes provoke them into violence, you need to go back to your martial arts training and start over from the beginning. The moment you let someone else control your thoughts and emotions you have ceded your own self-sovreignty to the jerks. By the way, giving into the temptation to do something you know is wrong won't make you feel better either.
###
Hi Paul,
No red meat here in that sense. The blog is doing fine without that.
I've just been bumping into a lot of jerks around NYC recently and came across this article at the same time. Pretty simple reason for the post.
I think that -- whether you train in martial arts for 50 years or for none -- people will always affect your emotions and thoughts, so it's a matter of being metacognitively aware of this influence and doing your best to digest and adapt.
Thanks for jumping in the conversation!
Tim
That being said, if someone spit in my face...it's hardly controversial to punch someone for such a disgusting affront.
@Allen: 'Jericho' committed battery when he spit on the narrator's face.
One of the Best and most deserved punch ever:
Old Man Astronaut Buzz Aldrin decking a conspiracy theorist and moon landing denier Bart Sibrel right after Sibrel came up to him and called him a coward and a liar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQKxAqpjroo
I could watch it over and over.
Erik
Dallas, TX
But that was the seventies, since then the rules have swung dramatically to favor the obnoxious ass but what disturbs me the most are the large 15-17 year old thugs that "spit in your face" and then dare you to touch them because they are minors. You can always find their parents too, they're the ones whose children have never done anything wrong and never faced a consequence.
Civilization all comes down to personal responsibility and consequences and when those are removed we all suffer.
So I say AMEN to swift and righteous consequences.
Violence is, in my opinion, necessary sometimes - but also regrettable.
I'll dive back into my idealistic bubble now :)
Why do I tell you this? Trust me, it isn't because I am proud of it. (Oddly, it did gain me quite a bit of respect back then.) Anyway, the point I am hoping to make is that if one of these guys did decide to put up a fight maybe one of them might have knocked my sorry ass out. Who knows? Lucky punches happen all the time. Perhaps I would have learned that behavior is not cool.
I hope someone that acts the way I used to will maybe think twice about what they are doing.
Thanks for the thought provoking topic.
BTW, I've gone on to earn an MBA, be a successful commercial real estate agent, married and 1 daughter. So, I truly did get my act together.
###
Damn straight! LOL... I need Eddie Bravo hips first ;)
Tim
Keep up the fresh takes!
I love it!
I agree with every word. There is nothing that makes me angrier than having someone intentionally provoke me, knowing I will not kick their ass due to my own self control. Some people think they can say anything to anyone they want. They somehow don't realize or care that they are talking to another person. Those jerks deserve an ass whooping. What kind of a world do we live in where people can be intentionally rude, knowing that if you give them what they deserve (and they know they deserve it), they will just sue you.
I'm afraid to have kids, knowing they will have to grow up in a world where they can't stand up for themselves.
But a major point is being hit on: narcissism. It is so out of control in our society. Yes in some ways it is so much easier to walk away from a jerk, but that jerk goes on thinking he or she can go on behaving that way. It is so frustrating! The compassionate part of you wants to take them by the arm and point out what it is they are doing (which I have tried) but they literally don't care and take real pleasure in being jerks.
One thing I do is just hold inside me the feeling of pity that someday that person WILL get what's coming to them. I also chant "This is not worth going to jail for" over and over. Sad day when I DO decide it IS worth going to jail for.
This really kind of applies to girls too - I remember being picked on incessantly in elementary school. I finally lost it one day and literally almost took a girl's eye out - and I have to tell you I got left alone after that! I was strong enough to take on some of the boys in my neighbor hood, and sadly even my mother. Girls suffer these situations as well, and martial arts would have been such a boon for me. I really could have avoided so much of it if I had had confidence in myself and didn't lose my temper.
Now, I have finally learned my best weapon? Laughter. I just start laughing when someone starts in with me. If I am in line behind someone who is abusive to a checkout clerk, I help him or her laugh it off. If someone starts in on me I start laughing and pointing and man, it shuts them up fast. I did this in bars (I have a rather loud laugh), and it got me great success. Takes the wind right out of their sails. No joke, laugh and the world does laugh with you!
We small gals (4'10", 93#) often have to resort to a physical response when the occasion warrants it. Although I've found that simple "knee" response is much more effective than a slap in the face; it really gets the a**hole's attention and renders him inert
^_^
In the end, what matters is what one has to lose. The **sholes usually have much less to lose.
Fortunately, no one has ever spit in my face. Pretty sure I would be back in front of the judge on that one. It would be worth it.
Chill
Anyway ... the tennessee shoneys were 80% smoking and 20% non smoking. yeee ha.
So we wait extra long to get a non smoking table....
Regardless ... the dude in the table behind us lights one up ...
And so... Dad makes every 'obvious' indication that we are in a non-smoking section ... coughing, ... waving hands in front of face ... etc. And even the manager comes over and asks the man to stop.
But ... there sits fatass ... still puffing away ...
So .. after a few minutes dad got up ... walked over - grabbed the cigarette from the mans mouth ... threw it on the ground ... stomped it out. The man immediately lights up another and says 'why don't you try that again?'
My dad was calm and said ... "Sir, you are making it difficult to enjoy our meal. So please put your cigarette out or ... I am gonna bust open your lip."
The man just sat back in his chair and puffed and smirked ...
... I wish I had a video camera back then .. that was one sweet-ass punch.
Sometimes the best solution is to just to serve up a healthy dose of 'shut the F# up ... and clean their clock for them...
Our past president Theodore Roosevelt, was once fired from being a Sunday School teacher, because he rewarded a young boy a dollar for defending his sister's honor and knocking another boy upside the head. What ever became of this culture of dignified mutual combat?
Even so, it became clear to me 10 years ago that if I had males in my life I would still be dealing with these issues, albeit indirectly. I was in a pub in London, accompanied by some of the Queen's horse guards whom I had befriended the week before. After a while, a superior officer decided he should be a better friend to me than his subordinate. Pretty soon, the entire pub had broken out in a brawl, eventually resulting in several arrests. My attention ended up being directed at an innocent bystander who had gotten punched for no good reason. He and I left the pub to go dancing, and as they say, the rest is history.
I've decided the only meaningful way that I can contribute to this dilemma is to offer personal counsel to the men in my life - to help them feel as strong, competent, capable and confident as they can - hopefully lessening the need to "prove it" in random acts of violence.
When it boils down to it - even if the other guy is being an a**hole and pummeling him is justified - I don't care enough about the a**hole to encourage my man risking himself in any way - physically, legally, etc. I'd rather he just come home and prove to me what kind of man he is... Which is just as physical, hopefully just as satisfying, infinitely repeatable, and an equally valid topic to brag about with the boys.
This strategy seems to be working. I just had a new friend yesterday tell me that he feels more confident and comfortable around me than most people.
My Judo teacher taught us to defend for the weaker when they can't.
- "But your Honor, I didn't Mean to Kill Him"
You want to break the jerk's nose, so you punch them. By chance, you land a perfect shot... on the chin and knock the jerk out. They are standing, and fall over backwards onto concrete. SMACK- the back of their head hits the concrete, they die, and you go to jail. THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. So: if you plan to punch someone, plan your NEXT move to ease them to the ground if your hit lands well. OR: just kick 'em in the nads - they will fall forward, which is safer for them.
- "Oh You AND Your Friends Want to Play?"
You punch the jerk, but you misread the situation and his 8 knife-equipped friends that were over at the bar kill you. Or, they make a point of stalking you for the next 3 months, driving you out of your neighborhood or hurting your friends or pets when you're not around. This happens.
So, Tim - I think you need to disclaimer the excellent message of your post a bit - punch jerks IF you know where you are, who's in the room, who's hands are in their pockets, and if you're prepared to escalate or escape...
That annoying little hippie may be packing. Be ready.
- Karl
If some crazy fool ever spat in my face I'd bounce his f***ing head off the pavement.
S.
First off - this conversation has 2 very distinct components:
1. The appropriateness of seeking gratification and/or revenge by physically dominating someone else
2. The honest quest of deterring jerkish behavior in an unraveling society
I'm guessing that beating someone up in the hopes of "teaching him a lesson" doesn't work. I'm betting that whatever inadequacies drove the little "annoying hippie" to spit in the author's face have only been further validated by getting beaten. In fact, he may now be a martyr for the whole group's cause, thereby spurring them on to commit further acts of jerkiness.
If you REALLY want to act as a deterrent, you have to remove yourself (and your frustrations, anger, etc.) from the situation as much as possible - before rendering your unique brand of justice.
I am well aware that initiating a conversation with the kid about why he would choose to spit in your face (particularly when it's obvious that you COULD beat him up) is not the "manly" thing to do. But if you look at it from the point of view that this is your opportunity to CHANGE HIS LIFE FOREVER - perhaps you'll realize it's the RIGHT thing to do. OR NOT. Maybe you still decide to just pop him. But don't delude yourself into thinking that you're doing it for his own good, or as society's self-appointed mediator.
"What?"
"I..want..you..to..hit..me..as..hard..as..you..can."
"What do you want me to do, you just want me to hit you?"
"Come on - just this one favour."
"Why?"
"Why? I don't know why. I don't know ... never been in a fight. You?"
"No! But that ... that's a good thing."
"No it is not. How much can you know about yourself if you've never been in a fight? I don't want to die without any scars. So come on - hit me, before I lose my nerve."
"Oh God, this is crazy. I don't want..."
"So go crazy - lett'r rip"
"Hey, I don't know about this..."
"I don't know either, who gives a sh*t - no ones watching. What do you care?"
"Wait, this is crazy - you want me to hit you?!?"
"That's right."
"Where, like in the face?!?"
"Ha ha - Surprise me."
"This is so f'ing stupid."
PUNCH!!
"Aww Mother f'er - you hit me in the ear!"
"Well, Jeez - I'm sorry!"
"Ouuuww - Why the ear man?"
"Aw, I f'ed it up, kinda."
"No, that was perfect!"
Man, I love that movie! Some people are just asking to be hit!
Here in Canada, many of us young men have settled our differences by dropping the gloves and going a round or two. It's almost a coming of age thing for many of us - a good old hockey fight.
###
Hey "Tyler" :)
That is a great transcription! Thanks for the nostalgic movie reference. People think MMA is rough. Man, I'd take MMA over getting pounded by an NHL enforcer any day.
Pura vida,
Tim
Back then I got the customary 3 day suspension from school. Today, it's not unlikely that I'd be ambushed and killed later for that.
Along the lines of the "asymmetrical outcomes" reply, I actually think it's a far meaner and more cruel world now than it was. The reaction could be disproportionate and total over-reaction is not uncommon.
This is an interesting story about 5 guys who beat someone to death after a dispute in a bar. Hard to tell who the worse a**holes are here, but it's easy to pick out the dead guy.
Love your book, and your website. We have so much in common! If you weren't so darn famous, it'd be great to exchange a few emails with you sometime. (I mention the "famous" bit, because I'm pretty sure you don't have much time for new friends! :)
Anyway, I enjoyed this article a lot. Although I'm fairly sure I could hold my own -- I just got my brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (I know you can appreciate that!) -- I would still try at nearly all costs to avoid a real confrontation these days. I noticed a big change of attitude on that when I had kids.
-- Matt
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Hi Matt!
A brown in BJJ? That is serious business. Rest assured I won't be picked a rumble with you. I like my elbows just how they are, thank you :)
Tim
But it won't stop the AK-47s.
My buddy is married. His wife likes to dance, he does not, he's just not the dancing kind of guy. To fix this he goes with his wife to quite a few dance clubs and she can dance with whoever she wants. He doesn't mind people getting close to his wife in general, he is just not a jealous guy. Unless you touch his wife...
One night his wife was dancing and the guy she was dancing with starting getting a bit too physical. So he pulled the guy aside, explained the situation (we're married, I don't dance) and politely asked him not to touch his wife that way. Guys says fine. So my buddy notices the same thing happening again, and pulls the guy aside again and says, "I know it's a club, I know it's fun, but please just don't touch my wife that way again. If you do, I'll hit you." Another Ok, and back to the floor.
The ballsy little guy does the same thing again. And sure enough, my buddy hauled off and decked him. And it did end up going to the cops and then to a judge. When on the stand something funny happened.
My buddy's lawyer asks the sleazy douche bag "Did he warn you what he would do?" The guy said yes... Then the judge got involved. Here's how that played out
Judge: He really warned you?
Guy: Yes.
Judge: He warned you that he would hit you?
Guy: Yes.
Judge (turns to my friend): How many times did you warn him?
Friend: Three times your Honor.
Judge (back to douche bag): Is that true?
Guy: Well... Yeah...
Judge: Well then, that was fair warning and you deserve everything you got.
And he threw the case out. I chalk that up to small town court rules. But things might be changing for the better.
As a mother with a boy who may some day go to war...how do they learn to shoot other men if they never learn to fight? and is this a goal we want? what if I didn't have to worry about sending a whimpy boy to war and I could teach him how to turn the other cheek and "use your words". It would be nice but not safe.
Idealistically I'd love to walk away. But damn was I proud of that punch in the moon-bounce that day!
By the way, this is my debut comment on these blogs. I'm converting my life one step at a time into a Four Hour Work Week, and journaling / chronicling my journey on a blog at http://www.fourhourworkweekdiary.com/. I'd love all of your feedback, encouragement, and comments on my journey!
Oh, and I have some really cool apparel for any four-hour-a-weeker that cares to show it off in public!
Thanks,
Rex
Martin Luther King and Gandhi would have many arguments of passive resistance, instead of bringing in the “fists of fury” to solve the problem. I don’t think they believed in violence because it only made the situation worse. Yes, it might sound corny that I'm using King and Gandhi as an example, but they were smart men willing to look over the whole situation before they came with the big guns.
My suggestion would be to join with them in their clapping or gathering a few of the other people that were also annoyed and show them that they have no right to act like such jerks. It’s like you said in your book you got to think differently then the rest of the group to get the response you need.
###
Hi Karl,
That wasn't me in the bar! It was an excerpt from an Esquire article, so I didn't tell anyone to stop clapping or get my face spit on. Thank God for that :)
Tim
can't pick on weaker opponents
gender can't hit the other gender
must use MMA rules
There was this great TV show in the early nineties, called "The Grudge Match" that made money off getting people like Jericho and the bar dude into the ring.
Creative Aggression, (an oldie but a goodie) by Dr. George Bach is my top book recommendation on the topic
Keeping you posted....
Jose Castro-Frenzel
I am glad you cleared that up. I was a bit confused. Thanks for clearing that up. Thanks for the answer on the NYC vs LA question. In your opinion what best would benefit an entrepreneur in CA?
Have a great nite and enjoy your holidays!!!!!!!
Jose Castro-Frenzel
If you are online and people try to flame you, you should just go, "What's your address? Lets deal with this face to face." Shockingly most flamers online completely lack balls or maybe not so shockingly.
Browne
I spent a night thinking on this one,there is an old maxim I go by and it is always rang true for me no matter what the situation and that is, whoever loses his temper first loses the fight.If you spend your day looking to be offended you will surely find many opportunities to do so.
If you spend your day looking for the best in situations and being grateful for your life and things in it you will also find many opportunities to do so.
If you walk around with the proverbial chip on your shoulder you will find those that will want to knock it off whether verbally or physically.
If you remember Andy Kaufman,the thing he enjoyed most was pissing off others and see how far he could turn the screws on them before they would "lose it".Just ask Tony Danza,he hated the guy and Andy Kaufman knew it.
Each opportunity that is brought to you is ultimately a test of your character and if you don't pass that test,well,life will surely give you another one until you "get it".
Thanks Tim,
Keep up the good work.
Brad
I know exactly how you feel.
I'm a married father of two who counsels others in conflict resolution. But, when some guy ran his car up to my bumper and laid onto the horn because he felt I was too slow clearing the intersection, when my two daughters ages 7 & 8 were in the back seat, I too went a bit Old Testament.
I've trained in martial and mixed martial arts for years and am practiced in many techniques to bring rapid submission and immense pain. The point is, I'm not the only one. How can people just assume they can charge up on you and you haven't the means to systematically dis-assemble them?
Oh well, I suppose they rely on the fact that those capable of inflicting major damage know it, and thus don't feel completely compelled to do so.
You pride yourself on your ability to be aware (or metacognative as I think you call it?). Here, you seem to be unaware that for males -- especially drunken males -- the other guy will always be a "jerk".
You've formented a bristling comment thread of passive aggressive people who, the next time they accidentally bump into each other or spill a drink in the East Village on a Saturday night, might swing punches at the other "jerk". Remember that when 90% of these situations occur, alcohol will have been consumed.
I've lived in a few countries during my lifetime and NYC is the city I feel safest in. Despite all the aggression and honking and brashness, people tend not to let loose with their fists. This allows us to live On Top Of Each Other in Manhattan without it turning into Mogadishu.
You think New York's manners have really gone to hell in the last few years??? Really??? You sound like a Fox News commentator. Or maybe just maybe you're universalizing your personal grouchiness?
Fight Club is cool, I agree, and so is punching your mates. We're evoloved monkeys, let's not forget it. But punching strangers because you subjectively think they're "jerks" is stupid.
Also, the author of the Esquire article has weird agression issues (it's his schtick). Check out his interview with Colin Farrell, which is simply an inner monologye about how much he wants to punch Colin in his pretty Irish face.
I bet he provoked the hippy to spit.
Paul (MQ)
You are a fighter, Tim. How do you avoid situations when someone pushes you to the edge outside of the ring?
Aggression arises daily and daily I am faced with the Saint Anger. Women and men, it is like human kind crawling back into irrational animals when they're put all together inside of a vey small cage - representing any kind of pressure, they will fight for survive.
I think thank mother nature we might not come to demographic explosions and chaos in this way, mother nature will take care of exterminating the rooten seeds, as does war and epidemics as well.
In addition, some dogs that barks, they sometimes do not bite, anyways, keep an eye on all of them or over your shoulders, they have teeth that you can break with a good elbow brains. Nobody dies of intelligence but ignorance kills faster.
Kill with kindness my dear.
Cheers
Lou
I don't believe you can cure insolence, stupidity or arrogance with violence, no matter how satisfying it is!
That doesn't mean that I don't think jerks should be put in their place!
@Shawna
"This was the first time he had ever hit anyone. It was the best thing in the world for him to do. Good for his confidence and self-respect."
Yes, standing up for ourselves is good for our confidence and self-respect. I absolutely agree that we should teach our children how to stand up for themselves and their families and for what they love.
All I want to point out is that standing up for oneself in no uncertain terms does not necessarily mean throwing a punch.
"what if I didn’t have to worry about sending a whimpy boy to war and I could teach him how to turn the other cheek and “use your words”. It would be nice but not safe."
The lesson about 'turning the other cheek' is a lesson in compassion, not survival. I can understand where your decision is coming from, and indeed, if you taught your children to turn the other cheek INSTEAD of standing up for themselves, then you would be doing them a disservice, and to their futures as well.
The interesting thing about this cycle of jerks is that mindless bullies are only mindless until someone stands up to them, but the fact that so few people stand up to them helps to create even more mindless bullies.
While the article and your comments make a convincing point, I have to say that Jesus had a much more badass response to situations like this. He turned and walked away knowing that those kinds of assholes will suffer a much worse punishment for their actions...they have to live with an asshole like themselves.
I do think that men today need to...well..."man-up" more these days and I celebrate that, but I have a hard time believing that I'm any better than those assholes at my best or worse times. I feel It would be hippocritcal for me to put myself above another and correct him with a punch. I'm no hippie, "give peace a chance" kinda guy, but I think King and Ghandi were showed incredible strength and endurance to deny themselves and do what's right in the world.
You've got great posts, thanks for everything you do.
James
That story is the kind of thing that freaks me out. I was at a club in Cabo with my two brothers and my youngest brother was dancing with some guy's girlfriend (unbeknownst to me, he'd been warned and didn't heed it). We all got jumped at once and I took a blind punch that knocked me across the dance floor resulting in four stitches and two black eyes. I was glad to get out of there with that for as I was stumbling across the floor after being hit, I had the distinct thought,"If I end up on the floor, they'll kick the crap out of me."
Too few people believe in a one-on-one fight and they're usually not those who deserve a lick.
I haven't punched anyone yet -- I'm pretty good at just using words and body language to get the desired outcome. But I stopped backing down or just "taking it" a long time ago, too. I have zero tolerance for these kinds of assholes, and I do believe that someone has to stand up to them, especially in public, when the situation calls for it.
I think of it as a kind of ad-hoc, volunteer community policing. People tend to settle into a herd mentality. Unfortunately the assholes take advantage of this by making it "clear" that they're the Alpha in the group by acting like there's no authority nearby who can effectively challenge them -- and usually, that "act" of confidence is enough to make it so. But remember -- it's just an act. As soon as someone steps up and does challenge them, they either have to back down or defeat the challenger.
People get used to there not being a police officer around, so when one of these wannabe "Alphas" pops up, if there's no genuine authority figure around, people are (often rightly) reluctant to step up. So if you have the clarity of mind to see through the act, and can effectively challenge the jerk (every situation is different), I think you almost have an obligation to do so. Hopefully you can get the crowd behind you quickly and diffuse it without violence, but if not, well...
This dynamic also plays out in other ways. I hate crowds and avoid them whenever possible for this reason. Often a crowd just needs someone to lead the way. Watch a crowded movie theater exiting; see 100 people squeeze through the one open door before someone simply opens the other door -- I'm *amazed* at how often that one person is me.
One time some friends and I were trying to leave a crowded parking lot at the end of a concert, but no cars were moving -- we were all bottlenecked because the heavy traffic on the road outside the exit wasn't stopping to let cars from our lot merge into the flow. All it took was two of use to walk out to the road and start directing traffic to get everything moving more smoothly and fairly for everyone. But without that, 1,000 people would've just sat in their cars fuming (in both senses of the word) and getting nowhere (maybe a few being alert enough to grumble, "they should've hired someone to direct traffic...").
Tim would you take this guy on? I love the beard.
My main lessons:
- The one who tries to stop a fight always gets pummeled. But it's sometimes worth the effort.
- Practicing a traditional martial arts, for me Taekwondo, somehow lessens the fights you get into. Perhaps because of acquired self-control.
- Unhealthy repression of your emotions, gets you into more major trouble. You eventually snap.
- A group of rowdy guys feel indestructible. But single out the biggest one and usually everyone else backs off.
- Keep your cool at all times even if you're already in the fight.
- Don't be a jerk like them.
Peace!
The thing is: I have been an instructor in thai and BJJ and I know what a single punch can do - especially these days:
whether on not you want to admit it the training available today is so much more effective than it was years ago that an average joe can develop tremendous punching power in a remarkably short time (much faster than the moral aptitude to monitor it). So in a nut shell:
1. If you have the ability to punch well you shouldn't - your gonna really hurt the guy. Spit is gross but it doesn't hurt.
2. If you don't know how to punch you shouldn't - your gonna hurt your hand - possibly lose permanent function or at least have nerve or tendon damage. (Try hitting a bowling ball with your fist - that's what a skull feels like in most spots)
3. If you have any kind of moral sense of goodness you will NOT feel better after pummeling someone into the ground in 90% of cases (the ten percent that you could not avoid don't count but that's because the good feeling is that they didn't get YOU). I know what you feel like after - and it's dirty, low, and primal - like an alligator in the mud that snaps at everything.
Everyone is thinking, "What a buzz-kill dude!" "Your raining on my manly parade"... Well, not really guys - if someone spits in my face I will respond - and then they will wake up a little later and I will ask for an apology - Chokes are way safer if you know what you're doing...
The thing is: a father was just killed in the town next to mine (with two kids) and I forgot the guys name so I googled: man punched outside of bar dies - try it... there is listing after listing of death after death.
Kinda takes the wind out of that macho response, eh?
tt
p.s.: first degree murder
It's like the fight scene in Dazed and Confused :) The skinny intellectual guy fights back and gets his butt kicked... but will feel better about himself for the rest of his life.
But just to be safe, have someone teach you the Guard Position!
Sometimes, we say "no injuries that last more than a week." Seems like a respectable rule for fistfights- if my arm is still hurting after a week, then you probably hit too hard.
And it clearly puts most weapons out-of-bounds.
But you have to make sure everyone is playing by that same ruleset.... if someone punches me in the face, unless I know them I have to assume I am fighting for my life, because I don't know what they are going to do next, and that is when injuries may occur.
It is believed commonly in western cultures that physical violence causes trauma, and more often than not leads to mental damage. Whilst this may be true in some limited scenarios, it is not true in almost all real situations.
As an AI specialist, I have spent some time studying the nature of neural learning (how the brain learns, at a fundamental level), and we can derive some interesting points from what is observed there.
First of all, in order to learn, a 'training weight' is required. In reality, this pertains to a 'reaction' which causes an affect on the brain in order to verify a 'good' or a 'bad' action. The classic example, is a child learning about fire. They are "burned once, and never again". The reason why this is so commonly true, especially in the case of fire itself, is that there is a very strong training weight (pain), which indicated a very strong 'bad' action.
Without a training weight, there is no such regulation of 'good' or 'bad', except in reflective training (that is, thoughts morals). Something which many "idiots" are reputably poor at.
I put it to you, that a strong training weight is a more effective teaching aid than anything else.
I'm not saying bring back the cane, necessarily, but, there are ridiculous rules coming into play these days that need to be stopped, now.
I wonder if many readers here (or many people at all) are aware of recent rules in the United Kingdom preventing teachers from saying 'NO' to children? (I'm not kidding, research it).
This idea completely blocks neural training weights, and I propose that children will simply not learn effectively under such cotton-wool conditions.
If there is someone I want to punch in the face, it's the complete and utter idiots that pushed such rules and ideals into our cultures.
"So every morning, you wake up from that part of your shallow existence you accept as "a dream" and, feeling your nothingness dawning on you, you reach for your bottle of social media and keep drinking until all awareness of it is obliterated from your consciousness.
Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a small village to the north I intend to conquer today and I have to go ready my horse."
I thought the same after reading that article. Many pea-brains (especially here in nyc) deserve just that. I've found myself in similar situations ready to dish out a knuckle sandwich for inexcusably rude behavior. Usually the a.h. is surrounded by like-minded meatheads (never a beautiful woman) and are practically begging for it. Unfortunately these are the same sociopaths that will huant you with a lawsuit later. In our "sue everybody" society it makes it difficult to defend one's honor. Keep fighting the good fight mein freund. You are an inspiration to those that matter. Might I suggest a book called "The Modern Gentleman" by Mollod and Tesauro?
-jo
See http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ for the real world consequences of what punching jerks in the face can lead to. He knows his stuff. Read it.
Learn to let go of your feelings-that is all they are. It can be done. There are techniques developed by different people. I've had a lot of benefit from the Sedona Method. Get the book, The Sedona Method: Your Key to Lasting Happiness, Success, Peace and Emotional Well-Being by Hale Dwoskin. It isn't expensive and if you put the work in you'll get benefits from it. After I did people I knew started asking if I was getting laid or on drugs. It works.
I say the above not from a pacifist viewpoint, but someone who's spent over 20 years doing martial arts, learning from people who have been attacked for real and have killed and seen people be killed. Nasty, horrible, terrible things.
If there are jerks in the bar making a noise, get over it and go somewhere else. Easy as that. It will clear a lot quicker from your memory than being raped in a prison cell because you were locked up overnight for being in a bar fight-or for life for killing someone who made you angry because they were clapping.
Be safe, have a great Christmas and go home safely to your loved ones. What can be more important than that?
Here we are in 2007 charging people with assault who punch people in the face when defending their "honor" and yet the man on our $10 bill died in a gun duel to the death.
Our country was founded by rebellious "terrorists" to England, yet they are glorified "revolutionaries". I'd like to see something rise up against "mother America" today and see them labeled "terrorists" instead of revolutionaries. Say hello to military prison for attempting a current day Boston Tea Party.
The issue is culture. Our culture has no base. There is no nuclear family anymore. Honor is not taught to our young people. Respect to others is not taught either. We are self-gods and this is why we are the way we are in this country. As one poster noted, kids are taught they are better than others.
During this holiday season, I have said "Excuse me" while trying to get around folks in stores. NOT A SINGLE PERSON has ever said this to me this season. Where is the sense of respect for others in our society? Instead, I am cut off in the store just as I am cut off on the road. Nobody RESPECTS me or MY SAFETY. I pay the same friggin taxes to use the road, yet nobody RESPECTS my space. Americans are SELF SERVING.
I do believe in Tim's post. There are many stories in history of men defending their honor and it was normally a contractual agreement. But even in those days, there was a general sense of decency that existed that prevented these escalations. I feel that if I had existed in earlier times, I would have been able to politely ask somebody to quiet down if they were loud and they, out of respect, would oblige. Today, I would get treated like shit.
Instead of having honorable disagreements and "gentleman's" duels, we hide behind 3000lb metal weapons on the road and take out all aggressions on everybody trying to survive their friggin commute.
I seriously think evolution for man has hit its limit and is going in the opposite direction.
Cyrus
Great post and timely. I just got back from 3 months in Europe and despite being at the bars almost every night I only had 2 or 3 people warrantlessly harass me. Then, last night - less than a week after getting back to the states and out for the first time since returning to Phoenix I got to enjoy one of those delightful Jericho experiences. While it’s not just an American thing, because of the babying it really does seem like it’s running rampant.
I'm 6'4, have a lighter build and I find that i'm perpetually harassed because of it. For some reason, simply because of my height people seem to think they can/have to prove something by trying to bully me. As a result I end up having to deal with at least two ego inflated puffballs each month pretending that they want to start a fight. The catch is, I don't back down and - go figure - with a lot of huffing and puffing they always end up tucking tail when they see I’m not going anywhere or scared of them. I prefer not to get kicked out of places or show up to work with a black eye and try and “be the better person” so I always let the situation diffuse, but its annoying having to deal with these jerkoffs and their posturing on a regular basis.
They've all proved time and time again that they're all talk and I’ve gotta say I’m not sure how much longer I can take it before I start bringing a taste of accountability back into the picture. It seems like that’s what’s really missing and behind it all. If these morons actually expected to get knocked on their asses, I imagine most wouldn’t dare leave their beers.
Barbaric? Not in this case. Perhaps just a necessary – but entertaining - evil.
Today is not the Day and I'm not the one.
I know you are speaking hypothetically. Because good teachers don't use sarcasm on their students.
I would like to start punching jerks in the face.
Actually, let me rephrase that: I'd like to have complete confidence that I could punch jerks in the face if I wanted without getting pummeled afterwards.
I'm even going to be sitting-in at three martial arts classes this week for this very reason.
[FWIW: From what you recommended on your David DeAngelo interview, I've decided to start with grappling, but I may take Judo instead of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (which you recommended.)]
In any case, I'd opt for your advice in The 7 Commandments of Blogosphere (and Life) Self-Defense before I started teaching people lessons for mouthing off.
Great post! Thanks!
Stand up for other people.
So, take it back to the beginning of the story, where the hippie is acting like a three-year-old. Now, imagine that everyone else in the bar stands up, turns to the hippie with intent and angry eyes, and a few people say something along the lines of, "Want a chance to take that back?"
Hippie option a: "Yes please, I'm sorry." (Sits back down, crowd waits a moment, then goes back to what they're doing.
Hippie option b: "[insert vulgarity/inanity here]." (Crowd grabs the guy and/or his friends if they involve themselves, pin his arms painfully behind his back, frogwalk him to the door, and plant a 50-lb boot on his posterior to chuck him through the door.
I understand that there will be those cases where someone with their mind unhinged comes back with an automatic and mows down the crowd - but let's face it, if they were that screwed up to begin with, putting up with them isn't going to change that. I really feel that if there were a sense of citizenship, a feeling that we're all stuck on the same boat and should take care of each other, not only do the jerks become the minority (as they should), but we're not forced to choose between ignoring blatant disrespect and fighting in our own defense. We should all take an interest in seeing that other people are treated with respect and consideration.
And who knows, maybe the hairy hippies will jump ship when they're ganged up on everywhere they go.
I do believe esteem building is the core of intellectual and personal growth. Most of my students are well behaved having learned their manners in the home from parents that have provided a nurturing environment. Unfortunately the class bully never had that and acts out. Its called "negative attention getting" and needs to be dealt with effectively within legal limits to protect our children.
-jo
If STFU is too harsh for your kids, why don't you start small with a hearty "HELL NO" when they ask to do someting ridiculous.
###
Hi Michelle,
It's best to see my "contact" page and choose the best person. For miscellaneous, best to email Amy.
Thanks!
Tim
Over here in Australia, we dont see a lot of what your talking about because here, men are still men and if you behave like that YOU WILL get a punch in the mouth..!!!!
Good on ya for telling it like it is. God I hate do-gooders and advocates of political correction. Aaah I feel better now :)
In a mind full of malice, there's no room for reason!
Asking nicely someone who is robbing you to stop won't make him stop. An elbow to the temple will however :)
I am not an advocate for violence, but there is a time and a place where verbal de escalation will not work. If you had spent time in the military you might have known this.
Like most things, there is a time and a place where violence is not only appropriate, but a positive thing. If someone is beating the crap out of you, violence can be a self-protective virtue.
There are limits on what is and is not okay, and some assbags only respect that limit when you punch back.
But sometimes, better just to walk away.
If it does reach a climatic violent level, better get to bruising and then cruising quick, because the police in America have become mighty fascist lately and quick with the tazer!
Don't be like the Bush administration, always plan an escape before you strike.
I went out dancing tonight, and just happened to be getting some fresh air outside the club when a bartender dragged another guy out and across the street by his throat.
I ran after them screaming something to the effect of "Hey, what's going on?" multiple times. The bartender tossed the guy into a fence, but didn't throw a single punch. I'm sure if I hadn't been there, he would have beat the snot out of him.
Why? The guy tried to steal a bottle of alcohol from the bar. Ridiculously stupid? Yep. Worth offending an innocent bystander and loosing her business along with her friends'? Apparently not.
Interestingly, there were at least 12 other people witnessing the event -- men and women -- and not one of them objected to the situation in any way, shape or form. They just stared.
I interfered with no hesitation, without knowing what the provocation had been. I'm glad I did, even if only for the sake that it proves I'm not living an anaesthetized life. Reactionary in my own way, perhaps, but not anaesthetized.
I learned an important lesson that day...the 50's rocked....guys need to start acting like men again.