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1. I've worked with outsourcing for 2 years (managing a team overseas) and it is very frustrating to get someone to understand your business needs. Indian counterparts are very good at doing exactly what you ask them to do, provided you've come up with that. But if you only have a vague idea and are asking for their expertise, it can be a frustrating job.
2. Americans need to come to terms with the idea that a job as the sole provider of income is a very dangerous thing to have. You are working hard but not building any assets or multiple sources of income (a 401K does not have enough pull) When hard times come around, what are you going to fall back on? Savings? 401K?
I just wanted to say thanx for an awesome book. I have been able to follow your advice and I now have pretty close to a 4hr work week. The reset of the time I am working on my startup...but you info game me the leverage.
I outsource quite a bit and i asked my lead provider about the quality of life he get from what I pay him $60 per day for programming Flash and PHP.
He stated " That for what you pay me, I can afford to have a BMW, live in the most expensive city, and make more than the highest paying government employee....and I am very happy with the work you provide me"
I wanted to make sure that he was happy with what he was earning, and in turn I have good Karma.
Tim, I think this ties very nicely in with your constant reminder that spending time in foreign countries can be cheaper than spending time at "home"... and that there are inexpensive places that are very nice and Americanized. In that light, probably the best thing an American can do is build a business that creates income independent of working a set amount of time in a set location... and then spend time in locations with a very good ratio of cost of living to quality of living. This, of course, suggests locations outside of the U.S.
Have you traveled to India yet, Tim?
I think most Americans have an obsession with complaining. The video showed an amazing juxtaposition of poor and middle class in India. My hope is that Americans realize how blessed we all are. I know I am thankful to Eisenhower for helping build our infrastructure. I pray that after losing a job we are all able to find the confidence to create our future not dependent on corporations but on ourselves. My hope is that the US economic downturn will bring strangers together to become families that help each other live more like the human family we all are.
Hugs,
Jen
Had to give credit to Morgan Spurlock since it's literally the entire show being posted here. The show's website is here:
http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/30days/
The one from the first season where he lives off of minimum wage is great also.
As Ergest pointed out above, Indian teams (from my experience) are fantastic at following instructions if you know exactly every little detail before the project starts, however, with even the smallest ambiguity, they'll ask for instructions instead of making a decision. This can be frustrating due to the lag in turnaround time for email responses.
There are of course extremely talented and responsible tech workers in India, but are harder to find, since they are either employed by foreign companies or are living abroad working for a foreign companies.
Thanks for sharing, Tim!
In the early 1900's, workers in the agricultural sector all had their jobs outsourced. The percent of Americans working as farmers dropped from about half of the nation to the single percentage points. They lost their jobs to people who could perform them more effectively and inefficiently in other states or areas (people with mechanized tractors). As China opened up in the 70s, textiles and clothing manufacturers closed up shop and outsourced the jobs. Then came everything else that is manufactured in Asia. Basically, the US has a history of outsourcing.
How has this history treated the US? It made it the most prosperous nation on earth, because companies were free to operate efficiently in areas that are better suited toward making their products. Areas that have a competitive advantage *should* be able to produce whatever they want without government stepping in. It allows both countries to prosper because each nation specializes at what it is most efficient at.
Outsourcing is a never an "either-or" issue where one countries is a loser and one country is a winner. It is always a win-win situation. Government restrictions on outsourcing is always a lose-lose situation. If groups want to "keep outsourcing in check" in the US succeed with their laws, they will force American businesses to be uncompetitive and wasteful in the long run. That destroys the economy.
Tracy
I am having issues now since what I requested wasn't in the 'scope' of the project. It's a website that supplies requested information, only each request opens up another browser window, so if you make 10 requests, you have 10 windows open. I didn't request that this NOT happen, but who would ever assume that it would be created in such a way. Small silly example, but indicative of a much bigger problem. The issues can then be solved, but it takes longer, will cost more (its not their fault you have different expectations), will aggravate, and invariably some other issue comes up . I hate to sound like I am generalizing, it just generally happens to me :)
I am now thinking I will save money if I hire people who will 'get it' not just 'do it'
Thanks for sharing!
The creativity and venture capital startups are still mainly in the States, which is why so many tens of thousands of bright Indian and Chinese young people find a way to get here and not the other way around.
I was just at the Society for Technical Communication Convention in Philadelphia, PA. There was much talk of "localization" and "outsourcing." According to a number of speakers, many companies that thought they could outsource programming to India have pulled it back to the States. The same has happened with technical communications and localization work.
There will always be companies for whom the cheapest route is the best (read Microsoft) and they will outsource to India and China. Others who value quality will keep the work Stateside.
I know this is a contrarian view and one you will not hear in the mainstream media or Gates ever pushing, but many companies have pulled back from India. They have a different ethos. It is one of those intangibles that cannot be measured easily in survey or by the academics, but it is real nonetheless.
Companies like Avaya who only want it cheap, cheap, cheap will continue to go to India, but many others have pulled back because they've been burned...and the word is spreading.
I mean, really... shouldn't that have been obvious?
With huge multi-million dollar contracts that happen all the time in the States, it is not surprising at all to see the winning bid, outsource pieces of their work to medium sizes firms which then outsource their work to even smaller firms. It creates work all around.
Research has shown that when it comes to ideals and prices, people talk with their wallets. Sure you want that pair of sneakers not to come from a sweat shop in China, but when it comes down to it, more often than not, people go with the cheaper option.
I'm certainly no expert on India, nor nation-building, but I have to imagine that either we were not presented with the full story of this man's plight; the government of India has a LOT more work to do to take care of its citizens; American companies investing in India are not doing enough to be sure their investments are not just going into the new middle class' pockets at the expense of everyone else, or the majority of this rising middle class couldn't give a hoot about the poorest of the poor in their country.
I wish I knew the answer to this question, and my suspicion is it's a combination of all three. I take no issue with sending money abroad, outsourcing is an historical and economic fact of life. What I do dislike passionately, though, is people (anyone) getting ahead of someone else at the others expense. That's unfortunately, correct or not, the message I took away from this film.
Thanks for sharing, Tim.
Cheers
Jose
I really appreciate you sharing this story. It opened my eyes to 2 things:
1. the way indians live with massive corporations providing them with a job and yet balancing their lives with family etc
2. and the opportunities available in western countries...like Australia from where i am from. we have an opportunity to redefine ourselves...they dont.
you get a deeper sense of life after being reminded that there are people in the world who just dont have the same luxury that i might have.
Thanks for posting these.
The idea is to have all capitals exchanges run without external control (like control from a government).
And these capitals exchanges include man labor (which is one form of capital). Thus outsourcing. If it's cheaper to buy a tree on the other side of the planet, let's do it. If someone is willing to do your work but cheaper, let's employ him, wherever he lives.
This concept leads to globalization, a term we hear a lot these days.
The good part of it: it helps poor countries to develop their economy, and it brings more markets to rich countries. And it brings some kind of control over the world (countries are less likely to make wars between themselves if they share economic interests)
The bad part of it: it makes everyone around the world lose their own culture for a global one. E.g., in China, tea used to be the most popular drink, now it is coca-cola. Is it bad? Well, when everybody on earth will eat burgers and fries, if a disease such as mad cow's happens, or worse, or if some bacteria would destroy potatoes plants, all the earth population would be in big trouble.
Um... you have to have wealth to redistribute it. Guess how wealth is built? Through hard work & savings (i.e. the accumulation of capital)
Would you have the Indian gov't take the little wealth the middle class there has accumulated and spread it out over the rest of the population, making them marginally better off for a few years, but destroying what little wealth they have earned and any incentive to continue working to improve their lives?
And why is it okay to steal in this context (the gov't stealing from the middle class) and not others (you going into your neighbor's house and taking half of what he owns)?
Do you realize that if what you are suggesting were implemented (ie sharing most of the fruits of the labor of India's middle class with the rest of India), that India would be even poorer? After all, would you be willing to work your ass off for even less than the guy in the video?
I am reading your book at the moment and exploring the possibilities. I have learnt many things from both your book and your blog.
This video on outsourcing was very insightful, educational and very moving. It has given me a look into the daily lives and challenges of my outsource guys in India - whom I have a great working relationship with and after viewing this video, an even greater respect than I had before.
Thank you for sharing this with all of us.
Smiles to you
Yvonne
Factory workers who are paid US$150 per month are, 3 day's train ride away from home, very willing to take up jobs 10-12 hours a day in the factory. That are their alternatives to working in the farm.
These workers stay in some dormitory provided by their employers and go home 10 days a year. These are better compensated people in the country. I've heard, many people in other part of China has an average salary of US$200 PER YEAR.
I guess, we have to accept the world as it is; but at the same time, we need to realize what special talents that you have to offer to the "world" of value; otherwise, we are doing a disservice to the people are desperately dying out there...
Roy
###
Hi Lucretia,
Thanks for the comment. The 4HWW doesn't hinge on Internet marketing, it just used online testing as a fast and affordable method for micro-testing business models and products, if you choose to be an entrepreneur.
Since you seem to have already chosen that path, I'd encourage you to reread the "Finding the Muse" chapter about markets and testing. I'd also consider you not to focus too much on income generation until you calculate your TMI and look at the options that mobility as an artist would create.
Hope that helps!
Tim
I enjoyed watching the videos, and have sent the link to a number of friends.
I am in Hamilton, New Zealand, and have been working in a call centre for a few years, (until recently I was a trainer there).
Currently my company is trialling outsourcing, (in Manila, Phillipines -not India), and many of the workers in the call centre are concerned about their jobs. Most are either young students or Mothers working part or full time.
The reality is that this was always going to happen at some point. The difference is that people in societies, like New Zealand or USA, have choices. Something that people in other countries often don't have. It is often hard for us to understand that, and I think that this is what the guy in the film realised.
I have never been to India, but I have lived in Spain and Morocco for a couple of years and India looks very similar to Tangiers. The conditions there surprised me quite a bit at the time.
If this subject interests you, I suggest you read Thomas Friedman's The World is Flat. I read this before reading Tim's excellent book, which is also good. I recommend Friedman's book to anyone who can handle a 'heavy' read, while Tim's is a much easier read, and more practically based.
Thanks Tim
I think you may have misunderstood my message a bit, and I apologize if I wasn't as clear as I could have been. Thanks for your response. My immediate impression was that this man, whose plight we were purposely shown to illustrate the divide between the middle and lower class (remember India does have an historical caste system), must be earning far less than what would be considered an equitable wage in relation to his duty as a manager of 60 people.
If my impression is correct, and he is paid a sum much less than what one would consider fair, than I wondered why this was the case, and thought about how we might be able to help change the disparity. I then laid out a few possible conclusions as to why there was such an unequal distribution of wealth in India.
As India continues to grow, it is my hope that Indian firms and MNCs, their employees and their investors, recognize more clearly their changing roles as "global citizens," and act as if they are not operating in another country but in their own backyard.
No longer are we living in a world with clear dividing lines between the cultures and norms we know, and those we are now coming to know. It is the responsibility of all people to understand that life and business is not about money, or eastern values, or western values, it is as our lead suggested -- "about people."
Traditional "waterfall" software projects *can* sometimes work quite well in an outsourced environment. This type of project is where the work is specced out completely before development begins. Assuming their English language level is good and the specs are detailed I have found Indian developers are quite good at following instructions.
However, a lot of software companies (Google and Yahoo are good examples) are switching from waterfall projects to more product centric development using Agile development methods such as Scrum. These methods don't lend themselves well to outsourcing due to the constant communication required between the product owner and the team. They also embrace "emerging requirements" which outsourcers will generally run a mile from - change is good!
I think if Western Software companies want to compete with the outsourcers - embrace these new methods. If your customer is local, they won't be able to compete with you - you will deliver what your customer wants, quicker to market, at higher quality.
Outsourcing does have it's place - call centres - yes. Easily specced work such as graphic design etc is also another one - I have used elance myself for this and have been very happy with the work. However, creating quality software is HARD and requires special methods that are unique to the industry, I think outsourcers will struggle here.
Interested to hear any other views from fellow software guys.
I'm from India and I run my own business, and yes most part of it is outsourced from the US. It's very true what's seen in the Video - there is clearly a society that is divided into diff levels out here. You see a slum and a five star hotel within yards.
Outsourcing - as someone said above, is closer to "competition" now. I don't prefer to agree that Indians are more talented than the US guys or vice versa, probably the US guy is more costlier. Also I should agree that Indian companies are not as quick and crisp in delivering the same quality as the US counterparts. Although we are seeing a gradual improvement in this.
But, I think over the period of time, we must see this as a win-win situation - for the good of it.
Americans who are thinking that exporting the jobs overseas will be easy are often in for a rude awakening about just how “foreign” the culture of the new workers are (as if we would expect them NOT to be “foreign”?) To ignore the caste system, different values, a wildly different work ethic (some positive, like not complaining as much, some not, such as deciding deadlines are just about meaningless) is extremely short-sighted.
The appeal to greed, i.e. “we can get it done dirt cheep” is indeed an appeal to near-slave-like labor, at its core. Let’s not kid ourselves. We can rationalize it, as these videos do, but for many CEOs obsessed with next month’s bottom line rather than the long-term value of high wages and a growing middle class HERE, that’s exactly as they see it. To say “Well, 20 cents an hour is a LOT more than they used to get” seems to cut out all the morality in the decision. While it’s not *technical* slavery, the comment above that we aren’t getting the full picture with this one family is a valid one. I’d like to see the guy struggling on extremely low wages interviewed. Some shows (Dateline, I believe) have shown these workers and how they’re treated.
Exporting menial tasks like research, email and phone banking may be easy and may even make sense. But if ALL jobs, including white collar jobs, can be exported to India and China, exactly WHAT are Americans going to be doing to create wealth? Sell junk on eBay? Surely someone must realize that dramatically falling wages, which we’ve seen in the last decade, leads to more debt and eventually less BUYING. Where will China be without a strong US middle class to buy their stuff? Unemployed.
I’ll also briefly note that in Tim’s book (chapter 8, p.114 US edition) Esquire editor AJ Jacobs hails outsourcing and specifically praises his Bangalore-based digital assistant “Honey” as a wonder worker. He cites an email that she writes to get a tourist board off his back. To end their constant stream of emails, she writes, in part: “Currently, these mails are not serving right purpose for both of us. Thus, we request to stop sending these mails.” This is illustrative of the cultural divide that separates us from other cultures. But what’s actually appalling about this is that the editor of Esquire magazine gushes about how great this letter is. Apparently, he couldn’t seem to get an American (of any nationality) to write an equally polite, but more grammatically correct “no, thank you” letter. It’s cheaper to find one overseas rather than pay a decent wage to an assistant here, I guess.
I found that most of the US companies that tried outsourcing and failed made assumptions and didn't set things up correctly. The ones that succeeded spent more time setting up the relationship. That's true of any relationship between companies, though; outsourcing just has a different set of variables. The poster above who mentions "Others who value quality will keep the work Stateside" probably comes from a group that didn’t set it up right.
@Doc Kane: Wages are all over the place, even for the same position and experience level within the same company; at my company, a lot of it had to do with background and particularly education. It’s not exactly related to caste, although there is a correlation, since most people have to pay for education. Anyway, just because he shares what looks like a small space with four other people doesn’t 100% correspond to his income, and I suspect he would be upset to hear his home represented as a “cave” and a “prison cell.” Many of the flats in my (middle class) building had four or five people in 650 sq ft, one- or two-bedrooms. My neighbors used to ask me didn’t I get lonely?
I get a "video file not found" when trying to watch the videos. Do you have a link to the original??
Rock on!
Christian
@ Mani
Thanks to each for the local perspective!
D
Thanks Tim :-D
(Let me not even get into the "better through efficiency" aspects of industrial agriculture which someone already mentioned in the comments here--better for whom, as it turns out? The animals being abused? [And I'm a meat-eater with no plans to change.] The human beings whose health is being ruined? The ecology being put severely out of balance? Define "efficiency" for me please, I think it's being misdefined here.)
I'm a single mom, very low-income and my little girl's dad takes decent care of us (I refuse to get back together with him for what I think are very good reasons, but we're friends), but it would do a lot for my self-esteem if I could make my own money as well, not to mention my bottom line, my debt reduction from excesses in my 20s, etc., especially if I did not have to institutionalize my daughter in a daycare or a preschool. (I think you'll recall your own days in school and understand why I don't want to inflict that on my child.) Doing something like virtual assistant work would be ideal for me, as long as my clients could stomach hearing her in the background from time to time. But as long as they're getting spoiled by India's lower rates, what chance do I really have in that line of work? That's one more door closed in my face because I am apparently not desperate enough--never mind that even on Rosebud Reservation in South Dakota, one of the poorest counties in the U.S., the cost of living is not as low as it is in India. And I don't live on Rosebud. Not even close.
You see, in the end it's not enough to call Americans whiners because we dare question the dogma of Lowest Price Is Best Regardless Of End Cost. If you're going to make your millions and trot off into the sunset partying for the rest of your life, the least you can do is make sure your rising tide lifts boats in your immediate vicinity as well. And this isn't even like donating money to charity where you don't know how much of your dollar will actually help someone, or being taxed to death by the Feds to support welfare programs you don't agree with. There is no magical Job Fairy that conjures up extra money to pay other people who work. In the end, that money comes from people like you. Believe me, the good people of India can work out their own problems, and it's more than a little racist and condescending to imply otherwise. But if we don't help one another out here, we're still the richest country on earth--who is going to help us?
Thank you for the advice in your book. I can now do my job in half the time and I'm working on liberating myself at least 1 day from the office. Your book has relived some stress from my life and I'm excited to see much more I can use your methods.
If the videos don't show up -- which might be due to country copyright issues -- just check out:
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/30-days-outso...
Enjoy,
Tim
My experience with outsourcing is similar to what many have mentioned ... specs need to be tight, will only do exactly what is asked and nothing more, etc. That led to a new group of positions in my previous company to pull together tighter specs and communicate with the offshore team. Those are jobs that didn't exist before outsourcing. Yes, we're trading three programming jobs for one analytical/communication job, but there is that much of a gap between development talent needed and development talent available.
I've also found many offshore firms to be lacking in the ability to architect a quality application. Instead of complaining about it, view it as an opportunity to solve a problem or fill a gap.
My advice for the guy in the video: Add value, identify problems with the new way and look for solutions, and be prepared to change. No matter how the work environment changes or how companies will try to do something different tomorrow, look for ways to position yourself to add value and you will always have work. Those opportunities are a lot easier to recognize if you're not complaining about your last job.
Suresh
Let's assume that 'outsourcing' means subcontracting regardless of the geographic relationship of the two parties. Now let's talk about software development.
The root cause of quality issues in software development is the quality of communication. This is true in manufacturing as well, but it's been addressed in the design language.
My empirical observation: Time zones erode the quality of communication.
I've managed software development with distributed teams across three continents. I've managed development split between the US east and west coasts. I've managed development with everyone, technical and business, in one room.
What I've observed is this: the more time zones between team members, the lower the quality and quantity of code produced per unit of time.
Why? There is no rigorous engineering language that applies to software development.
Proof? Boeing Aerospace has parts made all over the world. The same part can be made in any country because the blue prints and specifications are identical. Further, the quality tests are the same everywhere. (I worked as a toolmaker in aerospace prior to IT.) Ditto for silicon chip manufacturing.
There is no comparable language for software development. And there may never be. The joke among programmers is by the time you write a specification that's unambiguous, the program could have been written, tested, revised, and in production.
My development team split between the east and west coast had a tricky problem that went unsolved for weeks in spite of numerous calls and emails. The solution occurred after a few hours in front of a white board once I flew everyone to the same site. All were native American English speakers and talented programmers. Phone technology and time zones got in the way of understanding.
Time zones work against you. When you add Hindi English, offshore management styles that hark back to the 1950s auto industry, phone latency, and (most important IMHP) no long tradition of software engineering culture, the communication problems are compounded.
BTW, when I brought some senior talent from New Deli to Florida to finish up requirements and knowledge transfer, I observed a similar acceleration of problem solving to the native speakers mentioned above. Not as much, of course, but similar.
Cheers to all of you,
Wayne
Another sobering thing to consider is that, as the engineering outsourcing strategy DOES begin to work, it will mean that Boeing and other companies can proudly be the "assemblers" (or as an "integrator" of parts made elsewhere, as Boeing says even now.) That leaves the head office further and further detached form the REAL engineering decisions, eventually leaving it in simply a managerial role. And at that point, what's the rationale for it staying an American company at all?
A Boeing engineer said in a news story: “Boeing developed much of the materials, manufacturing processes, tooling, tolerances and allowances, and other design features, which are then transferred to suppliers in Japan, Italy and elsewhere. Over time, institutional learning and forgetting will put the suppliers in control of the critical body of knowledge, and Boeing will steadily lose touch with key technical expertise.”
For some, all this is academic, but for others, it highlights the suicidal nature of willy-nilly outsourcing of high-paying jobs from a pure greed motive. The CEOs had better understand that once the high-paying US jobs are gone, their future as over-paid CEO/managers will be going overseas too, as foreign companies simply demand more seats on the board of companies they will virtually (or literally) own anyway.
My views: I like the concept of the documentary. However, I don't like the Chris's negativity. Life is different in different places. Whether the place is dirty, whether the place is hard... The question thats important is are the people happy to a certain extent/ are they content. I think so. The problem with foreigners is that they look at a culture through a lens shaped by their own culture. To get a good understanding one must view things from that cultures point of view.
--
interestedguy
I agree with people's comments about competition - it is all about value - cost vs efficiency and skill and experience. If you can see the value of out sourcing, and you get that value, then do it. It's a connected world that never, ever stops.
There is a saying here in India, meaning be happy with what you have.
"When you worry about your lost pair of slippers, remember there are people out there who don't even have legs."
- probably that's the reason why people living in the slums are more happier sharing their area of 600 sq ft. with 6 other people. But in some developed countries an individual has enough space say 6000 sq ft to live in and spend in a day more than what an individual earns in a month. But you know he got to be seeking assistance either in form drugs, pills, or beverages for a good night sleep - all alone.
I will agree with one thing, though: Bangalore is turning into a nightmare.
It just so happens that the call center I was working in was payroll. I got to see everyone's salary. Managers earning $10,000 a MONTH. Executives earning literally $20,000 to $30,000 a MONTH. I see execs and managers with 401Ks that have $900,000 balance. That is the problem with American corporations. It is not us. It is not the little employees at the company causing any financial problems, were just the ones who get picked to lose our jobs. I do not buy into the whole competition thing. American corporations are laying off 700 people who earn $25K to $50k a year while they need to cut back on executive and management salaries. Our company investors pressured our company to do something about the proceeds they were receiving in their investments so the company starting taking American jobs to appease their investors. If you know anything about accounting, if you lay off some piddly workers now your salaries expense becomes revenue.
In 2004 when I lost my job to outsourcing I KNEW then that the economy would crash. Our American jobs are tied into our HEALTH CARE for example. We lose our jobs now we have a healthcare crisis in this country. Our retail industry is suffering b/c we do not have jobs and thus no disposable income to put back into our economy.
I was going to buy an new car next year, but I am not going to do that now b/c once it is paid off I will be free of that debt and since there is no loyalty among American employers anymore I cannot guarantee I will be able to afford to spend my money. Now all I do is save just in case I am laid off again.
I am training my nephew (who I am raising) to be self sufficient b/c his loyalty will mean nothing to an American company. There is no point in making someone else a millionaire by working 40+ hours a week if the thanks he will get is a pink slip.
I was rereading your book and had an idea I wanted to bounce off you--what are the odds that I could outsource finding a muse to India, selecting one and then automating it? Am I jumping the gun a bit or am I actually on to something?
Many Thanks,
Lenora
Peter
@Steve Dalton: "Computer programmer" here and I think that you're half-way right about your "Agile" comments. Yes, Agile is the new way in which we will develop software and yes, some people in other countries may be "behind the curve". But honestly, companies in the US are not necessarily on the curve either.
Most programmers I know (and have met) do some hashed-up version of waterfall and agile because they're not really comfortable at either. They've never written unit tests, they don't talk to clients, they don't storyboard. Heck even some of the agile people can devolve into "Agile as an excuse to be sloppy" (link)).
At the end of the day, becoming an adept and productive software developer requires a host of skills, a lot of education and even more experience. Building good software currently needs at least a few talented and skilled people. The best software developers are still 10 times more productive. It's easy to claim that outsourcing software has been a failure, but most Western firms aren't exactly in a position to claim success. Software development is still horribly misunderstood and generally poorly managed even at top firms.
And don't think that Agile provides anything more than a temporary edge. Cheaper workers will also "discover" Agile, they'll catch up too. Remember, you're in a knowledge worker's economy, but you're living in a country where the motto is "no child left behind". My friends who grew up in the Ukraine learned derivatives, integrals and linear algebra in high school... at age 16!
This guy's an out-of-work computer programmer and he's been out of a job for at least a month (based on the intro). What's he doing? If he didn't have interviews lined up the day he got laid off, then he should have at least been doing professional certifications while he hunted for a new job.
Welcome to the new economy! (I hope that your rant was cathartic, now get over it):
Managers earning $10,000 a MONTH. Executives earning literally $20,000 to $30,000 a MONTH...American corporations are laying off 700 people who earn $25K to $50k a year while they need to cut back on executive and management salaries.
Calling managers over-paid is no more or less short-sighted than called the "drones" underpaid. It's a free economy. If firing executives and managers was actually the solution to the problem, one big firm would already have done that and now they'd be out-performing the competition.
Honestly, what you're missing here is that those people making 10-30k / month are likely indispensable at even that salary. They are operating high-responsibility jobs that likely hinge on knowledge and skills that you don't currently have. In almost all cases, they've earned that position through extensive education, training and experience.
You're right about what you tell your nephew: "I am training my nephew (who I am raising) to be self sufficient b/c his loyalty will mean nothing to an American company.", this is indeed the new economy. But there's more to it than that.
You're an intelligent, obviously literate person, your post was basically free of spelling errors (and that's saying a lot these days). You're hanging around a pretty heady (if eccentric) website like Tim's blog. So my question is, what are you doing?
Why are you working A/R and call centers? Why aren't you worth 10k / month? What did you do last month to make yourself indispensable to your company? What did you do last month to grow revenues? Are you getting a fair cut for these efforts? Why not?
It's fun *(& popular) to say that business executives are "overpaid". But people have been making that argument since the dawn of time. You live in a world with about as much free choice as any that humanity has ever known, so you don't really have the "evil tyrant" excuse to fall back on.
For every argument you can make about rich, fat-cats ruining America and sending jobs overseas, I can make a counter-argument about lazy American workers who don't carry their weight, don't get enough training and don't take enough initiative. This is not a "winnable" argument, we're talking about a global balance built in a highly dynamic framework played out over generations.
The fundamental reality remains unchanged. You can either generate money and become indispensable or you can bleed money and get laid off. Companies don't lay off generators unless they're in their death throes. Generators don't have a rough time finding work, b/c some rising ship will pick them up (they're like found money).
It's nobody's fault, it just is.
There seems to be too much of a generalisation : Seeing a few villages in Bangalore cannot give you an idea about how India is.
Some of the incongruencies that I noticed :
The Ranjan family seem to be very artificial, almost runining the authenticity of the video, as a south Indian I could not help cracking up at some of the crazy things they were doing.
Telemarketing is definitely NOT something that has high regard among those with professional technical degrees! This video makes it sound as if it is considered to be a prestigious career!!!
Jobs in India are definitely not easy to find. The number of applicants per available position is mind boggling and there are tens of thousands of unemployed IT professionals in India.
Oh and we have been getting milk delivered on our doorstep in hygenically sealed packets...for the past 30 years :)
Chris' comments about poverty appears as if there is no poverty back home!
My last (onshore) project had 100 Indians on it - not just developers but Testers, Business Analysts, Project Managers etc. Plus 10 Russians, and 20 Chinese. There were only 5 native developers.
One questions - why are you handing control of your air traffic control systems, missile systems, banking and finance systems etc to the Chinese, Russians and Indian Muslims i.e. people who hate you in the West. Do you honestly think that I can protect the integrity of the code when I am overwhelmed? Do you know how easy it is to insert (if month = 02 day =29 then powerDown) into the code and build it?
Just watched the video (downloaded it on itunes). Incredibly interesting to see the other side of outsourcing. I think sometimes we forget that there are real people on the other side of those phones. I have outsourced almost all of my muse at this point and am so grateful to the work that their doing to help me live my four hour work week.
I am an Indian born and raised in Mumbai. I have had friends from Bangalore who are anything like the Ranjans. My apologies, but hey seem to be stuck in the middle ages and yes seem artificial. On a more professional level, Telemarketing jobs are readily available and not a prestigious career. Being a call centre manager is another ball game altogether.
Jobs in India are definitely not easy to find. The good jobs are already spoken for and are rare to come by.
Currently, I am a resident Canada ( 8 years now) and the opportunity to work and change jobs is unbelievable. I do not think that the 4HWW would be a 'thought' if I had been in India. We have a lot of opportunity here too. Some are just lazy and spoiled that we do not avail of the resources around us. I truly believe that ' you can succeed anywhere if you have the will and the resources to do so' Tim Ferris proved it. And now I follow suit....So ends my rant!
Go ahead people, have fun doing what you do best !
I'm trying to re-organize my life even though it seems quite difficult for me. I'm doing my doctoral degree in IT and working part-time that seems a full time job. I've read half of the book and trying to outsource some tasks that I don't have much skills and consumes a lot of my time.
I can't even cut down 10% of work time but I'm trying. Everything seems having to be done shortly at pretty much at the same time and I miss going to the dance class!
:(
It is exactly what it sounds like in modern times: outsourcing in India.
Not only is it a fictional film that people totally fall in love with but the producers travel around the US to give talks at business seminars and to educators. The movie is American made and filmed in India. It's heart warming. You'll like it.
Reinvent and Reimagine thats the key.
These issues with people "getting it" exist in IT and beyond regardless of weather the peroson doing the work is sitting next to you or at the other side of the world.
I think this sums it up http://www.businessballs.com/images/treeswing/t...
Dave
"stealing american jobs" lol. loss of a few jobs will not result in further poverty in america. our poverty is a time deficit rather than a monetary deficit (although this exists too) and is spiritual in nature. thanks for posting ;D!
At one point I'm extremely pleased by the fact that the tedious business-related errands can be done by someone who is ACTUALLY HAPPY to do it. For 1/4 the price! and it could be less. But then i had my doubts. Is it sustainable? Since the karma of unsustainability always catch up in the end, never up front. Then, this thought went into my head.
You see, I'm an indonesian living in Singapore currently. For a Singaporean, an income of S$500 is not that much. Actually, it's the typical income of a waiter. Convert that to Rupiah, which is Rp 3.800.000, then that is considered a lot for someone who lives in Indonesia. That is the usual salary for a middle-class manager working 9-to-5 in some company. How can this be? Simply because it doesn't cost much to live there.
So i guess outsourcing can be a win-win deal. You pay a small amount of money to someone to do your job. But for them it's a lot of money since their living cost is not that high, compared to our first-world standard that we are living in.
life CAN be filled with abundance