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It's all about tone, right?
Cheers,
D
Here's the thing. As a lawyer, I don't find that letter especially threatening or rude. The tone is pretty standard for a lawyer letter. Heck, half the legal universe would have written the phrase "GOVERN YOURSELF ACCORDINGLY" across the bottom of the letter in all caps.
I wouldn't have written it that way in an initial contact to an unrepresented party, but the tone is pretty standard. I'm not saying that's right - again, I wouldn't have written this letter. In fact, I *hate* this sort of demand letter, for all the reasons that you've pointed out and more. I have a policy that I explain to all my clients of never threatening someone until I've actually *drafted* the complaint that I intend to file.
That said, is it really fair to place all of the blame on the call center for the fact that they hired a tool to be their lawyer?
So, okay, they were rude (by proxy) and didn't realize that you have the power to hurt them. Now you have hurt them, some. Maybe. Feel better?
But rather than just be negative, I'll recommend CMD Outsourcing Solutions, a Baltimore call center company I've worked with. They mostly target middle-market businesses when it comes to lead generation and the like, but their people are super friendly and I'm sure they're happy to turn away any not-a-fit prospects politely and with a thank you!
:)
Tina
thanks,
Bill
What a boon for them to get all these hot leads for FREE. The average price per lead for a business like this has to be in the hundreds or thousands. Foolish, foolish business decision.
That last sentence is what has harmed their business. We all may not have a need for a particular product or service, but we may know someone who does. Is anyone here going to recommend that company to an associate or close friend? Tim has USED them, recommended them to his readers, and for his trouble, he received a nasty-gram from their lawyer (good thing it didn't come in an email...).
It was a stupid move. Because now anyone who does a Google search on Protocol Marketing will find this article, given Ferriss' large audience and blog traffic.
*sigh*
Was it worth it?
Two weeks later got a frigid cease and decist letter from their attorneys threatening me for buying a domain that "may" be similar to their Trademark. Ok, no problem, I understand and will use another title. When I called back, they claim no one at the foundation remembers getting my email or voice mail weeks earlier.
Left me with such a bad taste in my mouth, there's no way I could, in good conscience, dream of gifting them such a donation, in fact, I want nothing at all to do with them. Found another charity that is thrilled to work with me on it.
I am convinced people who treat others like this (with the first contact being the Bully approach) will become extinct. The first communication does not have to be so ugly, especially when someone is clearly trying to help you.
What's that saying, "you meet the same people on the way up that you will meet on the way down."
Live Your Dreams,
Jill Koenig
I wouldn't mind publicly humiliating the guy trying to sue me, but I'm not sure if that's the best route. . . but it would sure feel good :)
Careful - the laywer might charge you for (mis)using his professional services. ;-)
Fair enough.
Believe it or not, I didn't do this to hurt them. That might be a side-effect, but this is a trend in American business that makes me sick, and I wanted to point this out as an example.
Why threaten litigation when a simple "ummm, do you mind doing..." would work 99% of the time?
It's the bullying that bothers me, and if this is their way of doing business, I want others to be aware.
I can deal with stupidity. Laziness I can also deal with, but less so than stupidity. Rudeness I have zero tolerance for.
Hope that helps :)
Tim
It seems a sign of our times:
You're wrong....... No, we're right........ TAKE THIS YOU _______!
What's missing? COMMUNICATION is MISSING. There are so many other avenues this could have taken that it's funny and scary at the same time. Unfortunately it mirrors the world (or at least the U.S.) as a whole. It's all "US" against "THEM", but at the core we all really want the same things.
We want.. Prosperity. Freedom. Love. Health. Peace....
We just may have different views on "obtaining" them (note: you don't really obtain most of them, but I'm at a loss for another word). Instead, the vast majority of people stick to their own dogma, and refuse avenues of communication which could forge new ideas and directions which could potentially be win-win's.
I could, and may [elsewhere], go on elsewhere. But I wanted to chime in since it's something that's been on my mind A LOT lately.
-Tim
Many companies would be thrilled to be mentioned in a bestselling book such as yours.
Given the detail that lawyers are known for, I am surprised that this one is actually real!
Paragraph II on page one is missing a period.
On the second page, paragraph II, there is a misuse of the word 'insure'. It obviously should have read 'ensure'.
I would have assumed the document was a fake, but I'm no lawyer.
Haven't you gotten a stack of lawyer letterhead like that by now?
Your point is well taken (we catch more bees with honey). I hear you and thanks for using this circumstance to extend some helpful advice, you're doing a great job.
Adios,
Dinastia
Great personal branding Tim!
They must not know who "Tim Ferriss" really is :)
Lee
The advertising costs they would have saved just by giving you a call.... oh man. Idiots!! haha
Lee
Un-be-lieve-a-ble...
As an attorney, I am embarrassed for the profession.
Please cease and desist from writing an interesting blog. It takes too much time out of my day to read and I can't handle all of the beneficial new thoughts and subsequent life enhancing activities your writings provoke.
If your response is not forthcoming (and a satisfactory response is what I am looking for as determined by me ) I will have to take appropriate action to compel your compliance with my demands (per my determination).
Jaq - Esquire Mag
1. When communicating with a lawyer, CC someone with both the authority and the incentive to cooperate. Corporate attorneys are generally not evil, but rather are given bad incentives: minimize liability, not maximize gain. Presented a situation with a 90% chance of a $1000 company gain, but a 10% chance of a $100 loss, many lawyers will say no -- though anyone else in the company would say yes. A one-line email to them from the CEO or VP bizdev can get them off your back instantly, in my experience.
2. If conciliation fails, and before a direct battle, consider the intermediate step of exhausting your opponent. If they have in-house counsel, it costs ~$400 an hour to fight you. Send the attorney short emails emphasizing your desire to cooperate, but asking litanies of questions that require detailed answers. Prepare a draft solution to the problem, and send it to them. Ask for redline in return (attorneys love redlining things, and they get longer with each draft, consuming ever more hours). Send a second draft. Move things forward a bit each time. The goal is not to delay them in time -- that would risk legal action -- but instead to cost them so much money that someone with better incentives notices what's going on. After a bit of this, contact someone with direct cost responsibility (e.g. the controller or COO), and complain that their legal counsel has probably spent more debating this matter than its entire value to their company. This too has worked for me.
These approaches can be particularly useful in a recession. Companies get scared, and start looking for crazy ways to cut costs -- Protocol Marketing seems headed down this path. In both approaches above, the goal to communicate clearly, to a person with the right incentives, that cooperating with you has higher NPV than fighting.
You can use my name and business in any book you write, no attorney will send you a letter! I'll send you a bottle of wine and a card saying thank you!
I would have thought this sort of advertising is pure gold. I am never going to contact this call center. Period.
Personally, I dont even go near lawyers any more. I last used them about 10 years ago for a business partnership break up, and they caused more angst and resentment than if we had all just sat down over a cup of tea and sorted it out without their input.
You are a gentleman and a scholar! Who among your readers wouldn't make a few minor adjustments to pre-qualify those callers, and then just lavish you with gifts and praise for sending all those free leads??? Better yet, they could have even given a free trial of their services to one lucky reader as a small way of thanking you for the publicity. How amazingly short sided of them.
Please keep us informed as to how this plays out, as I am very interested to know what fallout those photographed letters have. If there is none, then you have just given us ALL a tool to fight the bullying and sometimes frivolous and intimidating letters from the Big Boys' law firms. Knowing we don't have $50-$100,000 to spend in a legal battle just to prove we "are right" they EXPECT us to cave.
Thanks for the free legal/SEO/anti-bullying advice. I can't wait to Google them and see what comes up!!!!!! Justice is served!
Warmly,
Electra
In Denmark, we always thought that the joke that "the US has more lawyers than rats" was kind of funny - although we never really understood why this was the case, or if it was actually just a friendly way of knocking our overseas friends.
I've lived and done business in Brazil for five years - and there, it's the same deal - lawyers in everything, and as much as I hate to admit it, it is quite difficult to do business without one there.
Is it a trust thing? I don't know - I'm not going to second-guess anything, but the example Tim brings up here makes the same question as always pop up in my head: Why did they ask a lawyer to contact him? It sure wasn't lawyer to pointed out the problem in the first place - so why didn't that person just call up Tim or wrote him an e-mail or letter? I mean, not only was the result not very good, it also cost them a lot of money to use a lawyer.
In my head, the assumption must necessarily be bad-will from other people - why? are you like that? no you're not - so why do think other people are?
Just questions - no answers ;-)
/Anders
If you are really going to change it, I'd start a call center if you'd recommend me. ;)
I really appreciated your Q&A section and Biz Tech and answering my question about if we should give away free information to make the world a better place. You have been an inspirational trail blazer who have changed the way we look at work and life.
Great insights, as always. Style does make content. It reminds me of what William Bernbach said about the truth:
“The truth isn’t the truth until people believe you, and they can’t believe you if they don’t know what you’re saying, and they can’t know what you’re saying if they don’t listen to you, and they won’t listen to you if you’re not interesting, and you won’t be interesting unless you say things imaginatively, originally, freshly.”
I look forward to meeting with you at AKA soon as my body continues to heal what others had said would be impossible. Michael almost cried when he read your note to him. Learning to walk for the first time at 40 certainly isn't easy, but as you have shown, anything is possible!
Thank you. Thank You. Thank you.
Cheers,
And they call themselves a marketing company!
I agree that the CEO probably had no knowledge of this. If a #1NY best seller were giving me that level of publicity, I'd rather work with you to make sure the information was accurate. Certainly I wouldn't demand that it be removed. Especially in this economic environment.
These guys don't have a single idea...
If you are interested in outsourcing tasks such as Customer Service, Outbound Telemarketing, or grabbing a Virtual Assistant (or two!) of your own, [Tim], drop me an email...
We'll take care of you, that's a promise!
Wow! I can't believe they would turn away a golden opportunity like that. Free advertising from a reputable source. I wish I would be bless with that for my business. Being recommended in a book that's a NY #1 bestseller automatically gives prospects the image that your the obvious expert.
I am in a service based business - Martial Arts School so I didn't need a call center but after reading your book, I decided that I wanted someone else to answer the phones but didn't want to train staff
In Martial Arts, most calls are prospects that are scheduled for appointments. I found this great answering service called PATLIVE that uses a script and schedules the appointments. Current students can press a prompt and leave a voice message. I batch all callback at 4pm.
It works great! No more telemarketers wasting my time, no more ball and chain of sitting around all day waiting for calls, etc.
I was told by other martial arts school owners that my conversation rate from lead to appointment would go down. They were wrong - it went up. I believe it's because it give you positional power.
For $100-150 / month, it freed my day up. Instead of answer phones from 9am to 4pm, I have the whole day free. Yes, for $100-150 / month, I freed 7 hrs/ day or about 140 hrs/ month.
If you are in a service based business that takes appointments, find an answering service.
Thanks Tim for writing 4HWW. I reduced my work hours from 50 - 60 hr per week to about 16 - 20 hrs per week and my business has been hitting new highs in profitability every month. During the days, I started filling it with exciting activities and learning new thing.
Tim Rosanelli
[URL in name]
A couple of observations:
1) Wagner is an old school attorney. After reading the letter, the first thing I checked was to see if he had a website and email and (not to me surprise), he didn't. He also labels his fax number as facsimile. I've used some old school lawyers like this before and in some circumstances they are great. (I'm thinking of one I used to closed condos) However, these guys specialty is not PR and the old adversarial tone that is a mark of the legal profession takes over. I'm willing to bet he was fairly reasonable on the phone.
2) In law school, the best classes I had were taught by working attorneys and they often lamented that sometimes the adversarial tact was counter-productive and they often warned us not to be the attorney that kills the deal. One attorney, teaching a class on internet and the law, specifically mentioned taking the soft approach (i.e. a phone call or nice plea letter) first in many situations, to avoid having aggressive correspondence become public (and this was 5 years ago).
3) One of the best way to get this to change is Public Shame, which is what Tim is doing and what I have seen other bloggers do. Eventually, lawyers will get wise to the situation and think about it first, though I may be expecting a lot of my compatriots. (Plus, I bet Tim hears from Protocol soon)
4) When you get a letter from an attorney like this. Don't panic. If it sounds blustery, it is. Usually because they don't have much to stand on.
I am very glad to read your article "The 4-Hour Workweek". I benefit a lot from your book. It encourage me to think how to make my own live, and more important for me to think what I want to get in my life.
Let me introduce myself: my name is Linda Liu, I am living in Shanghai now, and it is interesting that I do the same work as you---medical sales.
I wish that I can get more advices from you about how to work 4 hours one week.
I am looking forward to your answers!
Best Regards!
Linda Liu
2008/10/29
We would do our upmost to thank people who would even suggest going out of their way to pass on our details to prospective clients and spread awareness of our company.
So if that is the case, please recommend Meridian's International Telemarketing services....we promise we won't send you threatening letters!
returns to us in like kind . . . what we sow is what we
reap.
And when we choose actions that bring happiness
and success to others, the fruit of our karma is
happiness and success.
Karma is the eternal assertion of human freedom.
. . . Our thoughts, our words, and deeds are
the threads of the net which we throw around ourselves.
? Swami Vivekananda
Check this out. I picked up Deepak Chopra's "Seven Spiritual Laws of Success" after learning that it's a favorite of Farrah Gray (Reallionaire, both of whom are also on my short list of mentors now ;-) and his words makes so much sense to me -- not to mention all the practical ways to deal with your own and someone else's baggage in the chapter on the Law of Karma (which I didn't realize is equivalent to the Law of Cause and Effect!) See Chapter 3, "What about past karma and how it is influencing you now? There are three things you can do about past karma."
I was inspired to blog about it just this morning (perfect timing, methinks) thanks to a Buddhist friend on LiveJournal who is perpetually struggling with her own and significant others' baggage. Click my username above to read my blog for a change of pace (scroll down to the post entitled "Intention, Detachment and Good Karma, baby!") and tell me what you think about my vision for the Dream CO-OP Learning Centre while you're there! ;-) Couple with Matt Hern's Purple Thistle Centre in Vancouver, it's got "The 4-Hour Workweek" written all over it!!
Hasta luego, Amigo ~
Penne & the CanDo! Crew :o)
iLearn in Freedom Network
*No idea what generated the question mark before Swami Vivekananda
*Farrah Gray (author of "Reallionaire"...)
*Coupled with Matt Hern's Purple Thistle Centre (.ca) in Vancouver (see Matt's Keynote Speech at this years, Alternative Resource Education Organization Conference in NY - video section of the iLiF Network - click username above.)
There's more, but that'll make me feel a little better about my rushed post this morning LOL Have a great day, mate!
Sage advice from a man who should have practiced what he preached.
If forty people show up at your lemonade stand asking for coffee, would you sue the guy who sent them to you, or find a way to make coffee?
I wonder if you didn't have a New York Times best selling book if the letter from the attorney would have ever happened in the first place. It just seems so counter intuitive for me to ever imagine reprimanding someone who is recommending my company (for any reason).
With the success of your book- and the calls that they were getting- why wouldn't they open a 4hww division to handle the demand.
Anyway, off to Buenos Aires to tango:)
Rob
Jet Set Life
That lawyer deserves a good spanking. If he wants to be a bully, he should try out for the UFC.
It's so sad.
Some people would kill for the publicity they had in your book.
Bad management and a dummy lawyer...
Tim, if you'll ever be so kind to announce a service I deliver that I don't and I get more potential customers than I can handle, I just would start this effing business, re-read T4HWW to get it on autopilot quick and send you flowers, no lawyer.
Thanks for sharing.
Good Luck,
Dana
Jose
I will never send a rude letter. If I send a *stern* letter it is because my opponent has already been given a fair and ample warning and they blew it.
Ah, lawyers! When are we ever going to learn?
1. Great blog, thanks for sharing. I always look forward to new posts.
2. Disagree w/Pmen, this is the type of letter litigators write. Transactional attorneys generally are more polite and focus on problem solving and building consensus.
3. I use similar letters as "bad" examples in law school courses I teach and marketing book for lawyers I am working on. Most attorneys don't realize that in addition to being a profession, practicing law is also a service industry and what you do/say, how you present yourself and your reputation count! Although it results in a small part from standard law school training, sadly most lawyers tend to be antagonistic. A good quality in a litigator, but not as a human, and some attorneys forget to strive be both.
4. As former inn/restaurant owner I was always amazed at properties that put up no vacancy signs when full. I would rather take time to talk to someone, recommend them to another place because more likely to get their business in future rather than steer them away without them having a chance to learn about your business. Ditto for them, should have put new script and designated lines to handle calls, politely turn away but at least capture potential future client info. Even if too "small" for them now, if treated right, when their business grew they would be prospective clients. Everyone is a prospective client. They lost huge marketing potential and a lot of future business. Amazing how many businesses inadvertently (and sometimes intentionally) tell potential customers we don't want your business. What the point then of running your business?
Thanks again for the entertainment - know it wasn't entertaining for you and you are rightfully indignant.
Regards, Bob
So, you've hopefully gotten one of the needless, bad ones fired by what is likely a decent enough call center firm - or you wouldn't have put them in 4HWW.
And maybe just maybe William C. Wagner, Esquire (geez, enough with the 'esquire' title) will learn a lesson and turn from the frivolous dark side and go do good in the world with his considerable skill at robotic wordsmithmanship.
TanveerAmin.com
If there's a "Darwin Award" for companies, this one is a winner!
For me, the article was a stark reminder of how my former business partner was given to abrupt, and abrasive interaction with people. He perceived threats and
offenses everywhere. His insecurity drove him to seek to control the
people around him. Just as in the article, he alienated one would-be
evangelist after another, until finally any prospective credible referral
partners gave up and left. He had zero tolerance for any information he
didn't absolutely control- including positive information about us and our
business. He would routinely fire off letters (I debated about reprinting
one of them here, but decided the your article was sufficient to make the
point) to people demanding they do or don't do this or that in the rudest
possible way. Mr. former partner also frequently lacked the requisite
authority or simple respect to compel compliance-- even assuming compliance
was desired which it often wasn't except in his head. I could no longer be associated with him for obvious reasons-- it hurt my own credibility and professional image.
In business, as in life, you're going to deal with difficult issues; and
you're going to wish people had or had not done this or that. You're going
to want to get your way. You're going to be tempted to respond abruptly in
the wrong way, sometimes even to the wrong person or persons to an
irritation. My advice is: don't. Take a breath. Assess the situation accurately, and deal with it appropriately.
Paul Strauss
Access Group, Naperville, IL
However, anyone can put my name and contact information in their book; blog etc and I won't complain even if there are inaccuracies. Inaccuracies like, instead of saying that I am the world’s best small business accountant you may say I am the world’s second best small business accountant :)
BTW, I have my Sharpie out and will "strike" said sentence from P.201. I can always count on you to be insightful, while cracking me up at the same time. :-)))
I guess they have learned what I've learned in my dealings with the government as an immigration lawyer - be careful about whom you attack..."The ass you kick today may be the same one you kiss tomorrow" or something like that. Proceed accordingly.
Thanks for sharing this experience.
I wish you growing success as will likely be evidenced by an increasing amount of ridiculous attorney's letters.
Jeff
That's why the size of a lawsuit *always* has more to do with the parties involved than with the merits of the case.
Perhaps, however, you underestimated the intention of the lawyer, Grasshopper.
If, like some folks believe, any publicity is good publicity, then he achieved quite a feat. Especially since you graciously noted that his client probably had no idea what was going on AND that you'd used their services in the past.
The best part was the cheeky ending!
As a lawyer, I know how much fun it is to bash lawyers for headlines. So, bash away, then hire us when you get into trouble.
Oh wait, you'll NEVER get into trouble if you keep practicing those killer martial arts moves!
Not only would they have gotten a better response, he would not have incurred the legal fees and what will now clearly be a loss of potential business based on all the comments here.
Life is not hard...I scratch my head when folks like this make it so.
Someone should email them all these comments. The real signs of being an idiot were displayed by their legal garbage. What a bunch of ignorant lawyers who put their ties on too tight!!!!! Haha, this should be on the press somewhere for most expensive legal letter ever written.
Posts from Cuxhaven,
Jose
[Note from Tim: Brian, please understand that I get more than 2,000 email per week, and that doesn't count Facebook/LinkedIn/etc. messages. I have assistants filter for me, as I am physically incapable of replying to these e-mails all personally. It's not an ego trip. Sometimes good emails are filtered out by accident, and this is an unfortunate side-effect of having systems in place - mistakes do happen. I hope you can understand my position, as I can understand yours. All the best, Tim]
A need to be validated? Perhaps, but what human doesn't want to feel acknowledged as worthy by other human beings. Now suddenly an individual uses similarly (to your own) effective methods to handle their all important issue (using a threatening letter to make sure they avoid any possible slack rebuttal for time effectiveness, perhaps you're familiar with this ambition) and suddenly you whine. I like you, you're a cool guy even if rather weird (your interpretation of breakdance); I incessantly recommend your book, but I can't help but feel karma has shown you if not only me that what you give, you get. My past frustration is has been requited. I rejoice in my understanding of the world. I wish you better fortune now this debt has had its reckoning. Hopefully that disrespectful ego trip of yours hasn't been made too much a habit of. Say it with me, Servant Leadership. Implied with lighthearted spirits, of course. Stay adventurous!
Please understand that I get more than 2,000 email per week, and that doesn't count Facebook/LinkedIn/etc. messages. I have assistants filter for me, as I am physically incapable of replying to these e-mails all personally. Sometimes good emails are filtered out by accident, and this is an unfortunate side-effect of having systems in place - mistakes do happen. I hope you can understand my position, as I can understand yours.
Pura vida....
All the best,
Tim
I publish travel guidebooks and a hostel review website and what could be a friendly email asking me to update a price or change some minor detail ends up as a rude and sometimes threatening demand.
One very large hostelling organisation occasionally sends such rude demands to remove a hostel from our database when that hostel leaves their organisation. Never mind that the hostel in question continues to operate independently.
Back to lawyers. In most cases I've found that lawyers are usually reasonable people but they're just nasty because their clients pay them to write threatening letters. However the clients and employers of PR people are paying them to be nice so there is no excuse for rude and threatening behaviour from them.
Please feel free to misrepresent any of my companies in any way you see fit in any future best seller books that you may publish.
Once I am inundated with enquires I will create the product that you have described and we will both get rich.
All the best.
Steve
Fair enough. I assume you know that there's a reasonably good chance that this guy will file a nuisance suit against you. I think part of why the letter seems only minimally annoying to me is I see the asinine lawsuits that follow all the time, and they are much, much more annoying.
Bob,
I hope it's clear I'm not endorsing the letter, and I would agree that transactional attorneys tend to write better letters, although I've seen terrible letters and outrageous bullying from lawyers of all stripes. So I'm not sure how deep our disagreement is. I was just trying to suggest that the extent of the client's involvement in the decisions that were made after it hired a lawyer is unclear.
If anything, I disagree that this is a good letter from a litigator's perspective.
From a litigator's perspective, part of the problem is that people mistake the purpose of these letters. I have never seen a demand letter unaccompanied by a phone conversation *initiated by the letter writer* resolve anything, ever. Even the nice ones that I usually write. Letters define positions and document a communication of that position fpo establishing notice and/or demand. Period. But plenty of lawyers make the mistake of thinking that they can bully the other side into doing something. And clients, unfortunately, often demand it, thinking it will save them money if they can scare the other side into submission. Which isn't usually how it works.
Good litigators understand that their job is ultimately to resolve problems without spending too much of their client's money.
It is a very sad day when you save a company money and they get mad at you for it. Too much business is a problem many companies would love to have. Seems like someone needs to rethink their corporate strategy.
Thanks for the continuous streams of humorous yet informational blog posts. I look forward to meeting you one day when I can finally apply all of the 4HWW principles in my life. Ciao 4 now.
I love the article! It's funny, to the point, and polite.
Interested in a little feedback on your writing style? While I find your books & articles a pleasure to read (both content & style), I find myself regularly wishing you'd use more plain English, more practical details¹ instead of the too frequent guru-wannabe over-styling of basically simple messages. While such a fancy sentence² can be fun, too much of it is too much. Reminds me of the professors I had at University, who seem to think that using complicated phrazing adds weight and credibility to their message.
¹ your "muscle gain" article, for instance is primarily intriguing and provocative where many readers would have loved to see more practical detail
² example from your article above: "1. How you say something IS what you say."
Keep up the good work!
Fred
Great and humerous post.
The further I read the letter, the further my jaw dropped as I marveled at the shooting-oneself-in-the-foot nature of it. Dumb, dumb, dumb!!!
I didn't read all the comments on this post, so somebody else may have already addressed it. If so, I appologize.
Anyway, the following hypothetical occured to me:
Suppose you are a competitor with a business that has been mentioned in a massively successful best-selling book like 4HWW.
Suppose you wanted to do something to hurt your competition.
How about creating a fake ridiculously threatening letter from a lawyer and sending it to the author of the book, in the hopes that he'd post it on his blog and thus make your competition look like A-holes?
Tim, prior to posting this letter on your blog, did you take your own advice and give the Don Norsworthy a phone call to get his take on this matter?
Oh, by the way, loved the book. Love the blog. etc., etc.
Keep the great stuff coming!
By bringing this situation to light, we'd assume the company would lose business for their lameness.
But I'm curious if it'll actually be the case due to one famous phrase... "Bad press is good press."
We may never know, but I'd love to see if it's true in this case. Will the company take a financial hit for the negative publicity? (I wouldn't use them if I was in the market... rudeness is a deal breaker). Or will they actually get more business due to the sheer number of visitors they get from here. (I click on them). I may not give them business... but others may.
I've seen business get killed due to something like this. But then Paris Hilton seems to thrive in bad press. I know, I know... apples and oranges :-)
We may never know how this will effect their bottom line. But I always wonder the impact of these kinds of things, especially in a world surrounded crappy business practices.
A truly successful business is one that's honest, open, and sincerely wants the best for their customers.
Keep us updated?!
:o)
G
Jose
I have been a lawyer since 1993. I have been involved in the legal profession one way or another since 1986. My dad was a lawyer, a polite one. At this point, I am so soured on the legal profession that I have been easing my way out of it for the past several years. I use my legal training, negotiating experience and marketing skills to build businesses and business relationships. In my experience, lawyers are almost exclusively unproductive cost centers, not revenue drivers. This is anecdotal, but twenty two years of anecdotes. Lawyers typically are not solution driven. Instead, they are driven to foul things up and make things utterly unclear and contentious. For what it's worth, I feel that Wagner's letter to you was boorish, irresponsible, counter productive and counter intuitive. As I said, a polite phone call from Protocol, not the lawyer, followed up in writing from Protocol, not the lawyer. In order to be thorough, I would recommend that this be filtered through a lawyer, but I would not “lawyer up” immediately as this tends to put people on the defensive and kill relationships.
"Be firm when necessary, but be nice whenever possible. Long-term, it doesn’t pay to do otherwise."
You might blow up on somebody and get your desired result for that situation, but you've quite possibly destroyed any chance of ever getting them to cooperate with you in future situations, much less stick their neck out for you when you're in a bind.
I have read the book...loved it! Use to live my life like it. Travelled the world in my twenties now I am stuck. How can I apply these principles to my life when what i do for a living is a service to others that can only be done by me. I am a Ceritified Rolfer and Doula....what the hell is that your asking well look it up. As well I own three realstate properties and have 6 rental properties under my managment. I am a 32yr. old single mother of a two year old as well. I believe in this lifestyle, always have, sooooo my question for all you especially tim do i need to change my career??
You have grounds to sue them, from this letter.... but they have no grounds to sue you.
They have no legal case at all. You have the right to mention their company, even incorrectly, and the cost of doing business is that they have people calling or visiting their website.
This lawyer has just opened them up to liability, and I really think you should forward this letter to their CEO.
Che, soy argentino, vivo en España y hace muy poco me devoré tu libro...sí, magnifico!! . Hace años..pero años...estoy buscando la forma de trabajar solo 4 horas o menos y disfrutarla...pero, sigo trabajando como cualquiera...ahora justo me han despedido por lo tanto, es posible, si tengo huevos que siga tus consejos...Un abrazo enorme y que sigan tus exitos....
They should simply open a new business servicing the new market.. DUH!
OR
Refer the leads to another company who can handle them-- And get a commission for each referral.
This is a non-related comment, but I need to know what you guys think about this.
I usually don't comment on the posts but I really want to know Tim's point of view and others as well.
Has anybody (specially in the US) watched a movie called Zeitgeist?
You can watch it online, simply google it and tell me your opinion!!
Thanks!
Ar
Te agradezco mucho por el comment y espero que nos veamos algun dia en Argentina o donde sea.
Mucha suerte con todo y un abrazo desde San Francisco, che!
Tim
It drives me absolutely crazy when companies use the legal system as a blunt instrument, and all of your points should be taken to heart by any quick-tempered CEO who reads this..
Lawyers are the same way. And clearly the client who hired this one, either delegated the legal management to an idiot or is one himself. The lawyer is like napalm as a response; and your reaction via post and other actions show it.
This company would have been far better off either 1) creating a new product/service to capture the benefit of this unexpected stream of potential customers, or 2) just modify the entry phone message to say if you don't have $X to start with, we're not interested in your business. And I bet the caller would have hung up then.
But this reality in your post is a case study of stupid lawyer management all on its own.
Siempre..........
Jose
I am very glad to read your article “The 4-Hour Workweek”. I benefit a lot from your book. It encourage me to think how to make my own live, and more important for me to think what I want to get in my life.
Let me introduce myself: my name is Linda Liu, I am living in Shanghai now, and it is interesting that I do the same work as you—medical sales.
I wish that I can get more advices from you about how to work 4 hours one week.
Are you in China now? If so, hope I have chance to meet you.
I am looking forward to your answers!
Best Regards!
Linda Liu
2008/11/2
:-)
--Mark
----------
"Hey Tim, You have a great book and we really appreciate that you listed our business on page 201. We're getting lots of calls from potential customers and we put a link to your book on our web site.
Would you please do us a favor: when you were a CEO and customer of our call center, our focus at the time was [describe here.] Now, our business model is more in the direction of [describe here].
It would very much appreciated and helpful if you could look at making a minor correction [insert here] to how you describe our business in your next printing, which we are excited to see.
When you are in our area, let's get lunch and I'd like to introduce you to some key employees who have all read your book.
Best Regards,
Gracious CEO
-----------
Now, isn't this a better way to solve a problem and SAVE AN OPPORTUNITY?
JayH
Tim, I read your post, then paused, thinking did I miss something? How in God's name were they complaining about the phone ringing or the emails coming in? In today's economy? They weren't complaining, they actually thought about it and engaged their corporate attorney to come after you as if you stole their company's intellectual property!
Granted - few letters from attorneys are peppered with common courtesy, they are paid for results whether its one letter or 20. That is why this should have never made it to the office of the counsel. The CEO of Protocol should have picked up the phone and first thanked you for putting them in the public's eye, and then shared with you his or her concern's and gone from there.
As it is, we all learn from our mistakes and hopefully this puts a new plan of action in place for them in how they deal with issues in the future. My guess is they'll have plenty of time to hammer out a new contingency plan now that the phone calls and email tsunami has most decidedly subsided.
Hope you or your assistants read this post and save you the trouble of another threatening legal letter.
I noticed on your web site
http://fourhourworkweek.com/wms/members/members...
Under the section "Closer Call Centers (per-minute and/or per-sale commissions)"
You still list the Protocol Marketing people.
You might want to remove that
Regards,
Alan Hinton
Pura vida :-)
Good catch! Thank you!
All the best,
Tim
This post made me send a reply...
Your case here: this is the reason why I'd hesitate to do business in the US.
You give out free leads and their 'legal department' tries to suck your moneypool dry.
If the company was sensible, it WOULD start a branch for such described services, but they even quoted you incorrectly.
My idea would be that new employees for my 'large business owners services' can test-drive on the start-ups. In that way little screw ups are tolerable.
Readers, please ignore business from this immature company. Business owners, see such a 'problem' as a way to make money, now or in the future, by referring to the correct profile needs later on. Be polite and you will be remembered when the time comes!
Laidlaw, actually me thinks it reflects the number of lawyers unhappy in our profession. Us human ones seek something more in life than the constant antagonism and stress that accompanies this career. I for one have been in business while practicing law, as well as teaching, and move more and more away from law and into entrepreneurship. I have been successful in last 12 years working virtually (I started in 87, but took some time for technology and client acceptance to allow remote work). Easier since I do international transactions, off-shore corporations/trusts, import/export, immigration - a strictly federal practice, so not shackled to state admitted to like those that practice RE/Criminal/Family, etc. This was conscious decision I made while in law school since new I wanted to be mobile one day. Now I can work anywhere in the world - now live in the mountains for skiing and outdoor activities, but thanks to inspiration from Tim's book looking at moving overseas in near future, or maybe become a PT mouse. At this point, my entire office virtual and implementing tips from Tim's book and blog, along w/ lifehacker tips on software, etc. has improved efficiency.
Tim, an interesting side note on 4HWW and lawyers. The Florida Bar just issued ethics ruling on outsourcing, and allows it to some extent w/appropriate supervision and protection of clients confidential information. Let me know and I'll scan and send you the article, might be useful for future book/blog.
For a darker example of the use of a litigious letter, with an outstanding response, click on my name "Mikey" (will link you to a related Huff Post article).
too much business. . .a good thing in my book.
Too much of the wrong type of business. . .So what? Adapt your business model.to the need of startups!
Jay H, I think you should work for Protocol. Nice Letter, but I like Tim's response. It makes for a great blog post.
Morale of this story: Don't put in print what could be blasted on the net. I wonder if the CEO will write back.
A lawyer charges its client for a service, it is therefor the lawyers prerogative to give it a level of service that meets the requirement of such a charge. One thing is to receive an Inbox full of emails and be productive to deal with the responses, another is to engage with a client and agree to provide a service that is unique and requires attention that will pay you.
I am just at a complete loss on your response above.
Don't worry, Tim. If you're looking for people to mention, feel free to talk about me. I'm all for a good inundating.
An update on the now infamous Protocol Affair:
Don Norsworthy, the CEO of Protocol, got in touch with me within 24 hours after this post and here's the scoop: the entire management team had been on an offsite while this transpired.
When Don tracked down the e-mail thread resulting in this letter, none of the proper channels had been CC'd. He was a polite gentleman and even declined when I offered to publish a response on the blog, stating that he was calling to apologize, not to have anything published. It was precisely the best response from someone heading a $100-million+ per year operation.
Their mention is still coming out of the book, but this was an excellent example of proper damage control following an employee flub that didn't track the proper approvals.
Case closed -- hope you enjoyed observing it!
All the best,
Tim
C
How to translate it in English? "Falem bem ou mal de mim, mas falem de mim..." or in German somehow like "Wer da spricht!"
It seems otherwise maliciously calculated from them. Their attorney bullied you, and you came to react with more free marketing for their name. It took a central point at least for this blog, even though, a negative one. Good or bad, it is marketing again.
Though, I like the emphasis highlighting that they're a call-center that could not handle demand, consequently it reveals an obvious internal lack of feasible plans for scalability. I do not mind much bullies sickening a company "short-term" until caught and laid off, but it hurts reliability in a service, anyway. I would not trust them again.
Whether their attorney antecipated things or not, the real ugly side has been exposed through it, and it would happen soon or later.
Apologies? Apologies after all? Too late, huh? I remember... I also apologize, but first after I punched...
Bis denn
Até mais
Love you
Lou
Thanks
Jose in Dallas Tejas : )
On the related issue of business behavior, we all need to take a lesson from this. Try cordial business intercourse first and maybe again before resorting to threats of litigation.
As a lawyer an communications expert I say let's cut one another some slack and see if we don't feel better and make more money.
David M Frees III, Esquire
Unfortunately the entire legal system was developed by lawyers to keep them employed. You can do hardly anything legal without the help of someone who is entirely overpaid.
If you can find a lawyer who can think on his or her feet and actually looks out for the best interest of your company - there's a winner.
-Brad
Rule number one in using lawyers: They are the servant, NEVER the master. Make certain they know their boundaries and stay under your control.
I doubt that lawyers appreciate being treated as slaves. I would prefer to know my lawyer, his limitations and his strengths intimately.
Thank you Kindly,
JC
Outside service providers should understand the culture of their client. Whether its a CPA, attorney, marketer, etc., clients should demand that the provider spend time getting to know the business and management. On-site time with the company fosters the sense of team. Using low bidder, one-time service providers results in letters of the kind that started this post.
Attorneys should always ADD value.
Next think about the "action" stage.
The question becomes: Who does the "company" (see below) trust/like more to address this problem?
Tim Ferriss or their lawyer? And, even more important, what option will be easier and cheaper? Path of least resistance. Never underestimate its appeal.
The 'company' = the person responsible for addressing this "problem" - who is merely a "representative" of the organisation, and at the same time an individual with his/her own thoughts and feelings
Commnication is indeed required. But which type of communication is most powerful? Email, phone or in-person? The lawyer, or his colleagues, have no doubt employed the third type... extensively.